Birth Control and Gallbladder Problems | Pill Reality Series | Lucie Fink (Episode 369)

Full Transcript: Episode 369

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Welcome to the Fertility Friday podcast, your source for information about the Fertility Awareness Method and all things fertility. I’m your host, Lisa Hendrickson-Jack. I’m the author of The Fifth Vital Sign and the Fertility Awareness Mastery charting journal. I’m a certified fertility awareness educator and holistic reproductive health practitioner with nearly 20 years of experience teaching women to connect to their fifth vital sign through menstrual cycle charting, balancing hormonal health, and optimizing the menstrual cycle without hormones. I’m outspoken about hormonal birth control and its impact on fertility and overall health because you have the right to know how your body works and how artificial hormones disrupt that natural process. I host live coaching programs to help you achieve optimal fertility and health because it’s important to have healthy menstrual cycles regardless of whether or not you want to have babies. I’m also a wife and mother of two beautiful boys. I know, I know, I’m a busy girl, but I managed to fit it all in. This podcast is designed to empower you to take full control of your cycles, your fertility, and your overall health, and I’m so excited that you’re here with us today.

Today I’m sharing a brand new episode of the Pill Reality series, and in today’s episode I’m touching on one particular side effect that has not yet really made its way onto the podcast, which is gallbladder problems. And so I’m sharing my interview with Lucie Fink. She is a popular YouTuber. She’s a 28-year-old video producer, lifestyle host, stop motion artist, and digital educator. She’s made numerous appearances on NBC’s Today Show as a millennial spokesperson, discussing a wide range of topics relevant to her generation. And from 2015 to 2019, Lucie worked at Refinery29, where she created and hosted their hit YouTube shows, Try Living with Lucie and Lucie for Hire. And today, Lucie is signed with United Talent Agency and creates entertaining and educational content for a global audience of millions across her various social platforms. Recently, Lucie has been sharing information about her personal journey coming off hormonal contraceptives and then also trying to conceive. And so we’ll be talking a little bit about that today, but our main focus is actually talking about her experience with hormonal contraceptives and how she believes it led to having her gallbladder removed. And during that removal process, she really didn’t know that it could even be related, and certainly her medical practitioners didn’t necessarily make the connection. So there’s that awkward moment when you’ve had your gallbladder removed and you pull out the insert, the drug insert of your hormonal contraceptive that you’re using, and right there on the insert is gallbladder problems. And if you’ve listened to a few episodes in the Pill Reality series, it will come as absolutely no surprise to you that when she brought this information to her doctor’s attention that they were quick to say well, you know, it couldn’t possibly be related, even though it was written on the insert as one of the possible side effects of the medication. If you are relatively new to the podcast, I’ve been doing the Pill Reality series for a number of years now and so you can find the other episodes in the series over at fertilityfriday.com/pillreality. You can also find other reality style episodes, my on-air client sessions over at fertilityfriday.com/reality. And so with that in mind, let’s go ahead and jump into today’s conversation with Lucie Fink.

Lisa: And I’m really excited to be here today with Lucie. Welcome to the show.

Lucie: Thanks, Lisa. I’m so, so excited. This is seriously my favorite podcast. So this is a dream come true for me.

Lisa: Oh, this is amazing. Well, you know, just to introduce the listeners a little bit to you and your experience, one of my favorite questions to ask on the show is just kind of straight into, you know, your experience with birth control and things like that. But maybe just let us know how old were you when you had your first period? Did you use birth control? You know, how did that whole experience go? I think that’s probably a good place to start.

Lucie: Yeah, definitely. So I got my period on the late side of things as far as it felt late to me. I wanted my period so badly and it came when I was about 15. And I remember the day I got it, I was a sophomore in high school, went into the bathroom and you know, just like wiped after peeing and saw a little blood, and was so ecstatic that my period had arrived. Definitely, I was the last of my friends. And I didn’t have any period issues in those early days. I was definitely just getting my period regularly. I can’t say it was 28-day cycles exactly. I was not tracking, but I didn’t have any issues. I would say I definitely experienced painful period cramps that were not debilitating. They didn’t keep me out of school, but it just kind of felt annoying every time my period came. After that first month, I was like, okay, I’m over it. And I kind of thought it was cool at that point to be like, oh, I have my period, even though it was all I wanted my whole life. And then around age 17 was when I became sexually active and wanted to go on the pill before I had sex and that was just probably because all my other friends had been on it already and it was just being handed out like lollipops at the gynecologist, and I definitely was scared of getting pregnant and wanted to make sure that I was doing everything I could before even having sex. So I was really open with my mom about how I was going to have sex. She knew I had a boyfriend who’s actually my husband now. So my only partner in life. And I told her that I wanted to have sex. I think I was 16 when I told her that we were talking about it. And for whatever reason, arbitrarily, she was like, maybe just wait until you’re 17. Sounds like a better age than 16. And it was basically at my 17th birthday that I got the pill — so not actually on my birthday, it wasn’t my gift — but I started the pill around the beginning of the summer when I turned 17 and had sex shortly after, and so kind of went on the pill just for that. It was not anything my doctor recommended based on any irregular period cycle or any other hormonal imbalance. I just did not want to get pregnant.

Lisa: Well, and so when you went on the pill, did you have a good experience? I know that I’ve interviewed a lot of women and so it’s so different. I think that’s one of the great things about being able to share these conversations because some women do really great on a certain type of birth control pill where the exact same pill caused other women to have issues. Some women do better on the IUD whereas the IUD is terrible for some. So what was, where do you fall within your birth control experience?

Lucie: It definitely was overall a positive experience. I remember having the talk with my doctor about the potential side effects and really all I was given were these kind of wide sweeping stats about how you can have a blood clot, but it’s very rare. And actually, I was really nervous about that because my grandmother had suffered from a stroke when I was younger, but she was a smoker. So the doctor was like, okay, smoking is a different category. It’s not like blood clots run in your family or genetics or anything. So that shouldn’t be a problem. And they didn’t really walk me through the rest of the side effects. I mean, I know they were right there in hindsight. Everything was right there on the box, but it was really just seemed like a routine prescription — oh, you want to be sexually active, or in some of my friend’s cases it was like, your periods are irregular, this is going to help you. This will also prevent you from getting pregnant, and as a side effect it could clear up your skin a little bit and potentially your periods will be less painful. And definitely that was my experience. I went on the pill. I didn’t have any type of weight gain or loss or fluctuation from it. If anything, maybe my boobs got a little bigger, which I was so excited about, but I don’t really remember charting them necessarily. I just, it made me feel very womanly to be on this pill every day and to know that I could freely have sex and not worry about getting pregnant, and at the same time, my periods definitely got way lighter, just in terms of how much blood was coming out each time. And I don’t remember how quickly I started doing this, but a couple of friends were talking about how when they would get to the end of their pack, like they were getting to the sugar week, the sugar pill week, and it was a vacation week, they would just skip the sugar pills and start a new pack and not even bleed. And I asked my doctor about that, and then later on in life I ended up going to Johns Hopkins and had tons of medical friends, and I asked all my medical friends about it, and everyone across the board — friends and doctors — told me it’s totally fine to skip over sugar pills. Everyone said, and by the way, I don’t even know today if it’s not fine, it just sounds wrong, but everyone told me that it was an okay thing to do, and that actually the birth control pill used to not have a bleed, but that women complained that it made them feel like their bodies weren’t working properly, so the doctors added in that one week of sugar pill bleed so people could think they were bleeding, but it’s not obviously a real period. But I would just skip over that, so I probably did that for the last five years of being on the pill, but I was on it for 10 years total. So I started at 17 and ended at 27, or I guess 11 years. I ended at 28, which is how old I am now. But I definitely skipped over multiple periods throughout that time. And I think the only other thing I will say is that I did cycle between different brands of pill, and it’s not necessarily because of crazy side effects. It was more so just random times I would go to the pharmacy and they would tell me that only the generic version was available or they had switched the brand name. And so I do have some names of pills that I have been on at different times floating through my head. Actually, when I was making my YouTube video about coming off the pill, I tried to stray away from saying the brand name that I was on at the time of my gallbladder situation, which we can get into later. I didn’t want to say a name because I didn’t want to accuse that pill brand of being the cause. But we can get into it when we talk about my gallbladder because there was one brand that I was on that did have a lot of lawsuits, so — could be a problem.

Lisa: Yeah, well, and just a question — because, so, I mean, I took the pill briefly when I was in high school and I was not sexually active, so I was taking it because my periods were heavy and painful. And I also did that occasionally. It wasn’t something I did kind of consistently, so skipping the sugar pills and taking it again. But there were times when if there was something happening, you know, a dance or whatever, summer stuff that involves water. Things of that nature that I would do that too. But I think that the most I ever did was like, take two and then one pack and then straight to another pack, and then I would always bleed after. So in that five-year period, obviously you don’t necessarily remember exactly, but is it five years of like continuous not bleeding, or did you just kind of like mostly not bleed?

Lucie: Mostly not bleed. I think that there were maybe occasional times when I would think, huh, I haven’t bled in a while. Let me just confirm that if I stop taking the pills and I move on to the sugar pills, I will actually bleed. For some reason, that did — as the women said in the 50s or whatever — that did actually make me feel a little bit better, like my body could still bleed if I wanted it to, because I obviously never wanted to be in a situation where I wasn’t getting a bleed and my uterine lining wasn’t actually building up with anything. So it occasionally — I would occasionally let myself bleed and feel like things were normal, but there were long stretches of time where I would avoid it. And I think actually one of the reasons that I started avoiding it was that I was incredibly prone to yeast infections throughout my time on the pill, and I would always find that they would come around the period, so either just before or just after when I had been using tampons for a week or like pads, and I always blamed it on the fact that — you know, obviously I’m getting a yeast infection, I’m sitting in my own blood, like it’s just moist and wet and hot, and like it was bad. So, and then also I got a lot of yeast infections around going to the beach and sitting in wet bathing suits, so I honestly grew to hate swimming over the past 10 years because I was the person who, if I was at the beach, I would have to bring some sort of a skirt or a change of dry underwear so that as soon as I came out, I would cover myself with a towel and take my bathing suit bottom off. And that made it really difficult to wear one pieces anywhere, and it made me less likely to want to go into the ocean or a pool anywhere I was. And I noticed that when I skipped the period, it did result in fewer yeast infections. So I sort of just blamed my yeast infections on my period and grew to hate my period.

Lisa: That’s really interesting. I’ve interviewed a number of women over the years who had recurrent yeast infections either shortly after going on the pill, or just that was kind of their experience throughout being on the pill. And so for everyone who’s listening, one of the known side effects of contraceptives — and of course every woman doesn’t experience it, and obviously those who do don’t necessarily experience it to the same degree — but many women experience this disruption of their vaginal microflora, because the pill is known to disrupt the microflora. And so I’ve interviewed a number of women who — they go on the pill, and all of a sudden they start getting these yeast infections. You know, they go to the doctor, the doctor is far less likely to say, okay, well, we know that this could be a result of the pill. So they give you antifungal, which then triggers BV, and then you’re on an antibacterial, and then you just keep playing this like ping pong between BV and yeast infections until at some point it either goes away or stops, or you come off the pill and realize that it doesn’t happen anymore.

Lucie: Yeah. And I never tried going off the pill to see if that would stop it. Obviously now I’ve been off the pill for a longer period of time and I have — I still have had, I think, maybe one or two since coming off, but when I was on it, it was sometimes six times a year. So like every other month I was having to buy out the Monistat from the stores.

Lisa: Shout out to Monistat.

Lucie: Yeah. I mean, it is really useful for anyone who has to take it. I would recommend not doing the one-day Monistat because it’s just so powerful and it really burns. So I always did the three-day and it worked. But you’re right, it leads to another issue. There is like a pill that my doctor started prescribing — the Diflucan — and you just knock it out with one pill, but sometimes I was getting misdiagnosed. I would think it was a yeast infection, so I would just go to the store and take stuff, but it was actually BV, and what I was taking was making it worse.

Lisa: Yeah. I mean, we could get just for all the listeners, like we could get into a conversation about how to treat yeast infections and what’s good or what’s bad, because I’m sure that, you know, many of my listeners have done a lot of different things. But I mean, ultimately, I think the — hopefully the takeaway here isn’t that the Monistat is all like the be-all and end-all — that was a joke. We are not sponsored by Monistat. But the point though is to know that there is a connection — that is the point. And ultimately, you shouldn’t have yeast infections all the time. You know, it happens, but generally speaking, without the disruption of the microflora happening on a continual basis for many women as a result of contraceptives, if you’re able to support good gut health by either eating probiotic foods or supporting all the wonderful ways that you can do that, you can significantly reduce the instance of this happening, or potentially eliminate it. And that was something I discovered kind of in my personal journey earlier on because I did have a few instances of yeast infections. But when I really focused on incorporating a lot of those good foods, it didn’t really happen. And so there is that connection in general between having good gut health because the gut health is what kind of filters into the vaginal flora, like microflora health. And so before we move on, because I want to ask you about your gallbladder, I just wanted to touch quickly on this whole concept of suppressing your period, whether it’s good or bad. And so I don’t necessarily have an answer, but I feel like what you said — what I talk about a lot, what I talked about in The Fifth Vital Sign — it’s really interesting looking at the history. Where did the pill come from? The first pill was put on the market in the 60s, and before that happened, there was what I call a beta trial. And so essentially, the men who put out Enovid, the first pill, before they released it, they did a clinical trial. So they had all these women, some of whom were actually trying to get pregnant, and they put them on the first version of this pill. And the first version did not have a sugar pill week. So these women were put on it continuously. And so imagine the 50s where there was no birth control. And so the only time women stopped getting their period was when they were pregnant or breastfeeding or ill. That’s it. So these women were put on this pill, and even though the doctors explained it, they stopped getting their periods, and many of the women thought they were pregnant. And the doctors tried to convince them that they were not pregnant, that it was the medication. They were kind of like, “No, no, I’m pregnant. I don’t have my period. Obviously, I’m pregnant.” And so when the women discovered that they weren’t pregnant and it was actually the medication, then many of them were devastated because some of them were actually trying to get pregnant. And it was kind of like that — we’re going to suppress the cycle for a while and then come off of it and it’ll boost your fertility, kind of thing.

Lucie: Can you explain why they were giving the pill to people who were trying to get pregnant?

Lisa: Yeah. So it’s kind of like this idea that if we put you on the pill and suppress the cycle, then we come off of it, that your fertility’s going to bounce back, kind of thing. So that was kind of the rationale for why some of these women were included in that trial. And so ultimately, what came out of that beta trial was the modern day version with the sugar pill week. So from that perspective, what I find really interesting was that — so, to get the women in the 60s to take it, they had to mimic the cycle, because the women in the 60s were not okay with not having a cycle. That was weird. So now 60 years later, women are very comfortable with not having a cycle. So now they come out and tell you that there was — and this is true — no medical reason for them to put in a pill week. The sugar pill week was put in for marketing purposes. It was put in as a way to sell it. They needed to sell it to the women of the 60s. Not selling it — if they just stopped getting their period, they’re going to think there’s something wrong with them. So they had to do that. So literally, it wasn’t put in for a medical reason. So then when doctors are making the argument that there’s no medical reason for it, that’s actually — like, we can tell that that’s false, because ultimately it wasn’t put in for a medical reason. But what I find to be concerning is that we’re conflating this artificial pill cycle with a natural cycle. So you’ll also hear doctors argue that there’s no reason for women to have periods. Back in the day the hunter-gatherers had a thousand children, so they never had their periods, and blah, blah — I don’t know that that’s a valid argument, because our bodies were designed this way, and the menstrual cycle is something that happens to all biological women who have uteri. So ultimately, to say that there’s no reason and all of that — I mean, that’s a hypothesis, right? And I’m just going to say that I have a different hypothesis. So the part that I find concerning, and to kind of try to figure out what this means, is that nowadays people are saying there’s no reason to have a period. So you can argue that there was never a medical reason for a pill bleed, a withdrawal bleed, because that’s not a period when you’re on the pill. You’re not having a normal ovulatory cycle. So really, but ultimately, has it been studied? Like, is it safe to go five years without? Like, I don’t know. So even if someone says, like, it’s fine — I mean, show me the research where they actually had women just suspend bleeding for five years, and it didn’t increase the risk of any other problems. Right? Like, show me that research and then we can have a conversation. So I’m not convinced that it’s totally safe, air quotes. But at the end of the day, it is true to say there was no medical reason for it. But there are many medical reasons for women to have regular ovulatory menstrual cycles. So just don’t confuse those two things. So I’m going to come off the soapbox. But for anyone who is wondering what my thoughts are on that, and Lucie as well, because you were kind of talking about that as well — it’s so common. I’ve done it. Most women who have taken the pill have done it. And many women now — it’s much more common for women to just take it continuously for years. And I’m sure plenty of women are listening who’ve done that as well. Which I guess speaks to the overall, quote, safety of being on the pill in the first place and having something that’s barring and masking and putting a band-aid over your normal period so that it’s not there.

Lucie: Well, yeah. And I mean, ultimately, this is about informed consent. I always take it back there, because most women — that little piece of information that we just talked about — most women haven’t heard that before or even heard that perspective. That is what is important for us to be able to have these conversations in that perspective. And ultimately, you know, if you’re looking at your health long-term, if we don’t really know if there are any side effects of long-term or short-term from suspending the bleeding for years and years, like, then yeah. So maybe any researchers listening, you know, let us know what you find, please.

Lisa: So getting back to your story then, so you mentioned that you took it overall for 10 years and you did mention about your gallbladder and the particular brand that you were taking that was apparently associated with issues with gallbladder. So tell us a little bit about that.

Lucie: So around 2017, I suppose. I guess at that point, I had been on the pill for maybe eight years, seven or eight. I started to experience a strange dull pain in my right abdomen, just kind of beneath the rib cage on the right side. And I actually — you know what, now that I’m saying this — in college, so years before, there were probably two incidences that I remember, isolated incidences of randomly one night feeling this pain and just kind of feeling it in one spot. And it was dull. It wasn’t like I was being stabbed, but I felt it. And I can’t say that it was after eating anything particular because I had no idea what it could possibly be. So I was not monitoring what I was eating. But because I was at Johns Hopkins, I did have a friend who came over when I was feeling this pain and asked me all my symptoms and did say to me that it sounded like it could be a gallstone. And he just said that word to me and I just put it in the back of my mind and thought, okay, like I’m not the kind of person who gets gallstones. Like, what is this? And I also Googled it, and they have all these risk factors for people with gallbladder problems. And I fit the bill for some of them. Like one of them is being female and being fertile. But the other is — I think it’s the four F’s: fat, fertile, and 40. And I have a very slim build. So like I didn’t fit in the body category, and then the age category, I was way younger. So I thought there’s no way that it could be this. But I just sort of tucked it in the back of my mind. Another time I remember feeling the pain — and this one’s actually funny — I had just eaten like a crazy brunch at this place in New York where it was like chicken and waffles, and I just remember it being — now that I think about it — incredibly fried and fatty food. And I went up to the hotel room that night and actually had to call that same friend in agony. And he was like, it’s okay, it’s just, you’re having like a minor gallbladder attack. Like, that’s clearly what it is based on what you just ate. And I just remember thinking, okay, so like maybe I have a gallstone. And just sort of put it in the back of my mind. Now we’re in 2017. I was on vacation with my siblings and we went to Anguilla, the three of us, and we were just having a sibling trip together. It was actually a sponsored trip by Under Armour, and so I was like, we’re in Anguilla — it’s so beautiful. We’re, you know, prancing around this beautiful hotel, and all of a sudden, I start feeling the pain again. And actually it came up after a really high cliff jump into the ocean. And so I had this theory that I like popped my lung or I don’t know. I thought it was something that I did, because it just so happened to come up after a really high, scary jump that I felt when I landed. And so I was blaming it on the jump. I thought I had burst an organ in the jump, but when really it was just, probably based on all we were eating and what was going on, I was having another gallbladder attack. And this one was scary, because I was not home and it was very painful, and I was sort of up all night unable to sleep. I’m one of those people — I’ve been very lucky in my life. I’ve never broken a bone. I haven’t had too many scary like health incidences. So when I feel a slight pain, I think I’m dying, and I think it’s cancer, and I think it’s going to eat me that night and I won’t wake up. So I was having an extreme anxiety attack in the hotel like, I’m not going to be able to make it home. And we called my parents back at home, who recommended that I call one of my best friend’s dads who’s a gastroenterologist and tell him about the pain. And he confirmed on the phone that it sounded like it was my gallbladder and assured me I would be fine overnight if I didn’t have vomiting or yellow eyes or whatever. I was probably fine right then, but that I should stick to a very bland liquid diet for the rest of the trip and come to see him when I got home. So I went to see him. He did an endoscopy at first to sort of rule out a stomach ulcer or anything else. And then once we confirmed that I didn’t have a stomach ulcer, they did an ultrasound, and they said, you know, honestly, the ultrasound seemed a little inconclusive, but the person was like, it seems like you have one stone. Like they made it sound like they saw something in the gallbladder. And based on that, and the pain, and the fact that there was no other issue with my endoscopy, my friend’s dad recommended that I should get a cholecystectomy, where I just get my gallbladder removed. This was my friend’s dad. So I remember saying to him like, you know, I’d never had a surgery before except for wisdom tooth removal. And I remembered asking, if this was — if I was your daughter, which he basically thinks of me as his daughter — but I’m like, is this what you would tell your daughter to do? And he said, yes, absolutely. You don’t want to be tempting fate with a gallbladder. And because for your job, you do travel a lot. What if you’re in a foreign country and you have a legitimate gallbladder attack and need to have it emergency removed? It’s better to just electively get it out if you know that it has problems rather than just like see what happens. And I went to get another opinion at the hospital in my hometown to check. And pretty much it was — they saw my ultrasounds, he did some feeling, he asked me some questions. And I went in — I’m trying to remember the dates — but I went into the doctor, let’s say it was like August 4th when I went in, and we scheduled my surgery for August 5th. It was like I went in, felt around, he’s like, when do you want to come? And I, at this point, because of the result I heard from my friend’s dad and because this doctor was telling me, like, definitely surgery — I didn’t want to wait another day. I was like, well, now that I know I have this foreign invader inside my body that is causing me pain and potentially causing a whole host of other issues, I just want it out. And I was getting, I was like, mad at my gallbladder. I was like, you, you failed me. I don’t know what I did wrong to you. Like, I didn’t have the best diet at the time. I definitely have always been kind of an eat-whatever-I’m-in-the-mood-for kind of person, mostly because my family’s body — all of us have just a naturally slim build and fast metabolism — and like, we don’t gain weight from eating fatty foods or, you know, bad foods for you. So I always assumed that meant like, no weight is being gained, so health is fine. I always just assumed that I was very healthy. But now that I look at my diet, it was clearly not great, and obviously something was being aggravated. I of course now have celiac disease, so we can get to that later. But I didn’t know that at the time either. And also, I maybe didn’t have it at the time, who knows. But I basically just was not eating — I wasn’t being that conscious about my food at that point in my life. And I essentially was like, I want this gallbladder out. I don’t want to wait another minute. He said, when do you want to come back? And I was like, how about tomorrow? I wanted it to happen soon. I also had never had surgery before, so didn’t really know what I was getting myself into. I sort of just, I was honestly a little excited about the experience, and I was told that there would be a couple of weeks of resting and recovering, but I didn’t really know how intense it would be.

I had my surgery. I got it out. When I woke up was the first time that I was like a little upset that I had had surgery, because all of a sudden there was all the pain from the operation. It was a laparoscopic surgery, so not as intense as it would have been if it was fully an open surgery. But I was in and out in the same day, didn’t even have to sleep in the hospital, but definitely couldn’t do things for a really long time. It was a very painful recovery, took longer than I thought. It was so painful to laugh and to sneeze and to cough. Probably the worst part of it was the gas that they have to inject you with to do the operation gets trapped in different parts of your abdomen and in your back. And so when you lie down and then stand up, the gas goes shooting through your body and it feels like there’s an animal running around, and it’s painful gas, so that was pretty horrible. And the recovery was rough. But it wasn’t until the end of the recovery, when I was starting to feel better and looking down at my scars, that I started to have that sadness of like, whoa, what did I just do? Like there’s a piece of me that was born inside of me and was made on me and came with me that’s now gone. And I didn’t really think about the potential implications of how the rest of my body would have to adjust to this thing being missing now. You know, I was told — I always remember being told in biology, like as long as I can remember — I remember hearing about how we don’t need a gallbladder, like you could live without a gallbladder. So it didn’t seem like — it almost felt like someone getting their appendix out. But it’s not like it doesn’t do anything. Exactly. It’s like it doesn’t do anything. And in fact, you know, I was taught about how my liver was going to have to compensate and take over the job of the gallbladder. So now my liver was going to store the bile instead of sending it to the gallbladder. And it made me all of a sudden feel like I was putting extra strain on this other organ. So now I’m like, should I be taking liver support capsules? And the whole experience made me way more aware of everything I was eating and everything I was putting in my body, and just wanting to decrease the burden that I was putting on my body in everything I did. Because I kind of felt like I made this rash decision that obviously was recommended by multiple doctors, but I still felt like, wow, I made this snap decision and now this organ is gone and I miss it. Like I felt like it was like a puppy that got taken away from me and I was its mother, and I like let it go or let it be kidnapped. And honestly still, when I talk about it, it’s like I’m not going to cry right now, but I feel like I could cry thinking about it, because just the thought of this thing that I had with me my whole life is gone. And now there’s just like a staple in there and my body’s figured out how to deal without it, but it’s just a sad situation in my head.

And in the years and years post this operation, I did start to hear, as I got more interested in the natural health world, I started to hear loads of people talking about herbal supplements and different things you can try to dissolve gallstones or different dietary changes you can make to fix gallbladder problems. That just wasn’t anything I was exposed to before getting the operation. It’s not something I ever heard of, and it’s not something any of the actual medical doctors that I spoke with would have recommended as a potential treatment beforehand. But if I today had this issue and I knew that it wasn’t an emergency situation where it needed to be removed immediately and was infected, I think I would definitely take a little, at least a few months, before running to the operating table to see what other types of things I could try, and just see if they worked. And if they didn’t, you always have surgery. But I think — you were saying this in your last podcast — like, take a beat before you make the decision, and then make the decision.

Lisa: Well, yeah, no. It’s really interesting to hear your experience. So I mean, over the years, I’ve just spent my time talking to clients and doing interviews. And so I’m a person, I have friends, right? Like, we all hear a lot of stories and we all have a lot of experiences in our life, and they pile up as we get older. And so this is something I’ve heard a lot. So even when you said that you had the surgery the next day — I think I’ve shared on the podcast, it’s not the same, but I shared on the podcast — I think when I was about, I don’t even know, maybe 14 or something like that, I had this pain in my abdomen and I went to the doctor. And the doctor was like, oh, it’s your appendix. Come back at 4 PM today and we’ll take it out. And my mom like freaked out and she was like, I don’t know about this. And so she made an appointment with my pediatrician. We went up to the big city, and my pediatrician told me I was ovulating.

Lucie: Oh my gosh. So you almost got your appendix out during your first ovulation pain?

Lisa: Well, correct. Correct. And so like, another takeaway, right, from today’s episode.

Lucie: Wow, that is insane. So I mean, I guess the takeaway is, in any situation of elective surgery where you are doing it to prevent a potential problem in the future, just maybe give it longer than you think. Even — I understand the feeling. I had this feeling of, I know it’s a problem, every doctor has told me it’s a problem, everyone’s telling me to just do this, what am I waiting for? I was honestly like, the longer I wait, the worse it’s going to get. I just remember thinking, you know, it’s the end of the summer and if I want to be able to like enjoy the rest of the summer, I should just do it now.

Lisa: Yeah. Well, it’s a ticking time bomb, et cetera. And the interesting thing is that you actually did do the responsible thing, because you did get a second opinion, even. And that’s huge. Because this wasn’t a doctor — this was your friend’s dad. This was someone who you knew personally. So even having the nerve or the audacity to get a second opinion from that trusted of a source is — I feel like that really stood out to me when you were sharing your story. And I feel like it also — this is an important thing to highlight as well — for better or for worse, both of your opinions were from the same modality of medicine. And so chances are, you still obviously can get different opinions of different doctors, we all know this. But that in and of itself is an interesting thing, just to kind of keep in the back of your mind. Because if you’re only looking at one modality, and the one modality only has basically surgery as an alternative, then even if you seek multiple opinions, that’s going to be the alternative that you’re provided. You wouldn’t necessarily be provided with the kind of like, what if you didn’t get it out? Is there any way that you could manage it? Unless you chose to look at that on your own. So it’s like a really strong reminder that, you know, unless you’re bleeding out on the table, then you do have a week or a month or three months or six months or even a year, depending on the situation. And so this whole idea of always being rushed into doing something right now — I really have just a strong reaction to that.

Lucie: Yep. And even with my friend’s dad, who I’m so grateful for all of his help throughout it — and even he, and I’m assuming my other doctor plus many other medical doctors — probably even though I can now tell this story and come at it with this alternative spin of, oh, I wish maybe I hadn’t listened right away, I think they would all still say, no, you made the right decision. Because you never had that problem. All the times that you traveled, you never had to worry about it. It’s like a big black box of what could have happened and I didn’t have to deal with it.

Lisa: I have since uploaded a video to YouTube right after, and I did a whole blog of the whole surgery experience. There’s actually a clip in my YouTube video of — I had them record the laparoscopic procedure and give it to me. I woke up from the procedure with a thumb drive. Because I asked him for the video — you know, being a person who went to Johns Hopkins thinking I wanted to be a medical student and then switched into creative writing, I’ve always been interested in surgical procedures, and I watched tons of cholecystectomies before getting mine. So I asked him if he could film it and save it for me, and I woke up with a thumb drive. And I put a tiny clip of it — not the most gory one — but I put a tiny clip of it in my YouTube video. And even after having shared that video, there’s not one comment on that video of someone saying, why did you do this? You should have tried something else. It’s all, wow, I’m getting mine out tomorrow. Thank you so much for making me feel better. And maybe I should go back and revisit and talk about it again, just because today my view of it is different. I’m obviously grateful I never had a disaster from having a gallbladder infection or a major gallbladder attack and needing to get emergency surgery. But I am just a little curious — if I hadn’t listened to everyone right away and if I had just tried a couple of things, would I maybe have been able to have avoided it and be with my gallbladder today?

Lisa: Well, and so getting into like where the pill plays in all this as well — I mean, share with us a little bit about what you learned about the potential connection between the gallbladder issue and the birth control pill, because then there’s all these other factors, right? I mean, if the pill was a contributing factor, obviously that wasn’t necessarily brought to your attention. Would it have made a difference if you had come off of it? Or was whatever damage already done? And then there’s the other part about it — you know, even if you were told that that could have been an issue with the gallbladder, it probably wouldn’t have stopped you from going on the pill, because there’s a lot of things that are associated with the pill. And we don’t — I mean, I knew about the blood clots and all that stuff. And even though I got migraines the only time in my life when I was taking the pill, I was too young, I didn’t understand. There was no concept of the pill could be causing this migraine until many, many years later when I thought about it.

Lucie: Yep. So I also had infrequent but occasional aura migraines while I was on the pill. And I remember the first one — it must have been around 2015. I woke up one morning and thought I was having a stroke. Like I just was seeing these wiggly lines in my vision. And then I don’t actually remember if that one was preceded by a migraine, although I’m assuming it was, but it was just — there was no connection between the visual aspect and the migraine for me. So I didn’t like log in my notebook of my head that I had a migraine. But it did happen again, another maybe a year or two later. And both times it happened, I thought it was my contact lenses. I would take my contacts out, and I actually went to the eye doctor to confirm that my eyes were okay, which they were. But I would take my contacts out, drink orange juice, think I was maybe going lightheaded and about to faint, and then very quickly after, boom, there’s the migraine. Have to lie in the dark with a cold compress and can’t go to work. And that probably happened to me three or four times while I was on the pill. But to get back to — I’ll explain what happened when I told my doctors that — but when I first got the gallbladder removed, I remember in the time of sadness of wondering what could have happened, or what could I have done wrong. I just started wondering like, was it something — was there a way to prevent it? Was it something that I did? And just one day grabbed the box that my pill came in and you know, unwrapped the big piece of paper that’s folded 20 billion times to a big map-size sheet of paper, to look at what the potential side effects were. And pretty much, like, right there it was: may cause gallbladder disease. And I was kind of like, whoa. So it has to be this. I mean, I’m not taking anything else that may cause gallbladder disease. And I immediately asked both doctors plus my gynecologist about it, and it was sort of just brushed off. It was like, it’s probably nothing. Like, there’s not always a reason why things happen. Like, a 20-something-year-old healthy person — we always take gallbladders out of 20-something-year-olds. And they do, and they do. And in fact, a lot of young people who are not fat and not 40 are getting their gallbladders removed, and they do it all the time. And so whether or not it’s because — I’m not saying they’re being evil and trying to mask the connection — but I just don’t think it’s something that is coming up in their conversations. They didn’t ever ask me, are you on the pill, before they did my surgery. So they wouldn’t even know that I was on the pill. And they are just taking them out routinely. And so there’s absolutely no way for them to have associated the two. But when it was on the package, I obviously asked my gynecologist, like, well, I had to get my gallbladder taken out, and this says that it may cause gallbladder disease. Like, should I stop taking the pill? And her — I remember her response was — which by the way, I didn’t have a dedicated gynecologist at this point, so I was kind of just hopping around from person to person in the city, trying to find someone — and this one person was like, there’s no need to go off the pill. You actually — if your gallbladder was caused by the pill, that means you already had the worst thing that could happen. So there’s nothing else that could happen. Like basically, you already had the worst of it. Just there’s no reason to go off. And I was honestly relieved, because I didn’t want to go off. I was like — and now I’m sitting here thinking how crazy I am that I stayed on the pill for three more years after having to get the surgery. Because I was so relieved to hear my gynecologist tell me that basically it’s all uphill from here. And if it was related — which there’s no way to say if it was, even though it’s written on the actual package — even though it’s not like they write anything — like, it’s mandated by law that they have to do it. They’re required. And how do they get the information that’s written on the package? Through their own studies. So if it’s written, it doesn’t mean that it’s probably not related. And I think I felt a little better because around this time, there was one pill that I was on. It wasn’t during the gallbladder operation, but it was kind of leading up to it. My twin sister and I — we always did it together and were always on the same pill — we ended up going off that one because there were just so many lawsuits about it. Some were gallbladder-related, some were blood clot-related, but it just got a lot of bad press, this one brand.

Lisa: Are you going to tell us which brand it is?

Lucie: Um, you don’t have to. I mean, I guess I can. It’s already been sued by many people. It was called — yes — um, so as you — sorry, oh my gosh. Of course, it was called YAZ.

Lisa: YAZ, yes. Of course. I think I mentioned YAZ by name in my book. And everybody remembers YAZ because of the commercials. The commercials for YAZ were all of these like women that were happy and young and healthy, and it was like the pill because of the marketing campaign. And even the word YAZ makes it sound like a girlfriend.

Lucie: Okay, yep. There’s YAZ and there’s a lot of — you know, I can’t say that that was what caused mine, but I was on that for a few years, and then we went off because of random lawsuits, and then a year later I had my own thing. So who knows. But I did jump from multiple different types of pills to generics to non-generics to different brands. And you know, obviously I didn’t have any other major surgeries or issues. To go back to the headaches — I did tell my doctor at a couple of points that I was having headaches and explained the migraine situation that I was experiencing, and never was told to come off the pill. And that has shocked a lot of people on my YouTube channel. They’re like, wait, you told your doctor you had aura migraines and they kept you on the pill? I actually was getting DMs from my Instagram followers when I would post about my aura migraines, saying, wait, aren’t you on the pill? That’s really dangerous. You could have a stroke. And so that was around the time I was actually going off anyway, and I ended up going off. And to fast-forward a few months — my current gynecologist, when I went to first meet her and have a consultation, I told her that I was off the pill and that I had experienced aura migraines a few times on the pill. And the first thing she said was, so you’re never going back on the pill again. Like, if you experience aura migraines, we’re never putting you on any form of hormonal contraception ever again. And I’m like, why didn’t every single — maybe it’s because I didn’t have a dedicated gynecologist who knew the whole picture or cared enough. I don’t know. But literally nobody said anything, and I just had three or four instances of, I guess, a stroke waiting to happen.

Lisa: Yeah. And unfortunately it’s pretty common. I mean, all I can say is that so, for anyone who has listened to the Pill Reality Series episodes, and for anyone who’s even — this reminds me of the episode that I did with the author of In the Name of the Pill. And I mean, in the interviews I’ve done with doctors as well, and kind of the research — essentially when it comes to the risk of stroke, it seems as though many doctors are educated in med school to look for specific risk factors. And those risk factors include being over 35, being a smoker, potentially being overweight. So there are very specific risk factors that the doctors are looking for with regards to stroke. There’s a lot of research — very specific research — that specifically outlines that if you’re taking oral contraceptives and you have a migraine specifically with aura, that you are at a significantly higher risk of having a stroke. And so in my experience, so when I was on the pill, how old am I — that was like 22 years ago or 23 years ago, because I was a teenager. And so when you were describing your experience, so I did have aura migraines. So I was a teenager — really young, didn’t obviously have any understanding. Right? Because like now, looking back, I’m currently 38. So looking back at that time, I didn’t know a thing. I was just a baby. And so here I am having these migraines, and I remember — it’s one of those kind of silly memories — like I went to the dentist, so I was outside, and I was seeing this aura thing, like orange and like it’s pixelating, and whatever, and I’m like walking, my head is killing me, and I’m not even walking straight. And my dad had to take me home. So I went to the doctor, and the doctor gave me — I don’t know what the name of the drug is, he gave me these pills, I remember they were like triangle pills, and that seemed like that was serious — like I’ve never seen a pill that was shaped like a triangle. It seemed like it was this super extra powerful medication for migraines. And so that’s a memory I keep with me, because the same doctor put me on birth control. The same doctor. So the doctor knew I was on birth control, and the doctor didn’t tell me any kind of connection about the birth control and the migraines. And I remember I took one of those pills once, and it made me hallucinate, like it was such a strong medication. So I didn’t even want to take it anymore. And I think I only had that experience a couple of times. But like, it was only years later, Lucie — years later — that I, you know, I mean, I know a lot about the pill and stuff like that, but I mean, I had my experience. I kind of put it in my pocket, right? I didn’t really think about it. I didn’t really think about the headaches and migraines. But then like years later, it’s occurring to me, I’ve never had a migraine since. Like, wow. I’ve never — I don’t get migraines. Like, the only time I ever had these migraines with aura — I probably had two or three in the four-year span, maybe two — hard to say, because I was kind of on and off. But like two-to-four-year span of time when I took the pill in my teens. That’s the only time I ever had it. So just to speak to your experience — this is so common. And it’s scary. And it’s sad. And so if you’re listening to the podcast and you’ve heard Lucie’s story and some of the other stories in the Pill Reality series and my story — if you get migraines with aura on the pill, that’s a big deal. It doesn’t mean you’re going to die of a stroke, but that means that you are at a much higher risk. And if your doctor’s going to tell you what they told us — right, take it from us, we’re not doctors — check it out. Maybe look at different brands. Maybe look at something that is an estrogen-containing, synthetic estrogen-containing — just be aware. Because is it worth your life?

Lucie: I want to say that for me, coming off the pill cleared up all my headaches and fixed everything. But coming off was a whole separate nightmare for me.

Lisa: Tell us about that.

Lucie: So I definitely was afraid to come off for a number of reasons. I knew that now I wouldn’t be able to skip my period if I wanted to. I was expecting more painful cramps to come back, and on top of it, acne. And being in the career path that I’m in now — even being on the pill, I had multiple instances of acne and things I’ve had to deal with. But it’s just very stressful as I’m sure you know, being on camera and in front of the camera all the time with breakouts. It’s just like makes it 10 times more stressful. Throughout COVID, the anxiety of the state that the world was in led to my skin going crazy, and I was still on the pill during most of that. So I was just nervous coming off — what was going to happen? I made sure to stay on it through my wedding so that I wouldn’t have any issues around my wedding. And pretty much my husband and I, we talked about how I wanted to come off the pill. I assumed like maybe at least a year before we wanted to start trying, because I had at this point learned a lot about hormones. I had read In the FLO. I had read The Period Repair Manual. And had started listening to your podcast and was very much like — it’s time. I need to clear these hormones out of my body and like get things working back to normal so that when I do want to try to conceive, it’s a breeze. And I decided to go off in October of 2020. That was when I took my last sugar pill — it was my first time taking sugar pills in a while, so I let myself get that bleed. And then I just didn’t start a new pack, and I was waiting to see what would happen. And between October, November, December, and January of then 2021 — those few months were such a nightmare for me, and such a shitstorm of figuring out what was going on post-pill. So a few things that happened in that time period: I can’t say skin went incredibly rampant — skin was probably the least of my concerns. But pretty much immediately upon going off the pill, I started getting migraines — not aura migraines, but just migraine tension headaches — every single day for probably two to three months in a row. And they were emanating from this one spot in the back of my occipital lobe that I could like push the pressure point and then I would feel it radiating to under my eyebrow, and it was like the most painful, non-stop headache for days. Around that time, I actually — it took me about 50 days to get a bleed. So I got a period, and I was like, okay, I just have a long cycle. But then another 28 days, 40 days, 50 days, 60 days went by, and my period was gone. So I got it once, and then not again. I started to try all of these dietary changes to see if they would help with the headaches, and I cut out — I did one extreme thing for two weeks at a time, which was no gluten, no dairy, and no sugar for two weeks to see if it would help with anything. And if anything, the headaches got worse. So I immediately went back on gluten, dairy, and sugar, and made a declaration to myself that it was not related to food at all, that it was all hormones probably. And at the same time, I went to see a headache specialist because at this point I was nervous that I had a brain tumor or something. And she, as well as any other doctor I saw in this time period, assured me that it was probably not related to hormones being awry post-pill. So even though I literally had just gone off and this all just started, it was like, there’s no reason why this would be happening. Actually, most people — they said — their headaches get better when they go off if they’re one of those people who has migraines on the pill. Whatever. So I had no answers. But I did go get an MRI of my brain. And this is like unrelated to everything, but I did learn something weird about my brain on the MRI, which they assured me was unrelated to the headaches, but it was a very scary thing to see. Which was that my transverse sinuses — the two big veins that go up both sides of your head — according to my MRI, it looked like I only had one of those instead of two. And of course, the side that I was experiencing pain on was the side where it was missing from. So I’m like, I’m dying, I have no vein. And had to have an appointment with a neuroradiologist who looked at the scan more closely and assured me that it was actually not missing, but that I just had a lot smaller one on one side, and it was probably a way that I was born — a developmental brain thing. My body has figured out how to compensate for it. He showed me on the scan that that one side of my brain that had the smaller vein had developed a whole other network of small veins to compensate for the one big one, and assured me that that would not be causing headaches, even if that was a problem. But that it wasn’t a problem, and I was probably born that way. We sometimes see stuff like this when we do MRIs but it’s not related to the issue you’re having. So that just freaked me out — now I have a brain issue. And then I went — all the while I’m getting blood taken and being blood-tested — and I find out I have elevated liver enzymes. Which freaked me out because, as we know with the gallbladder, my liver is now working in overdrive. So I’m like, elevated liver enzymes — clearly my liver is stressed. Like, what could this be related to? So I went to this gastro who pulled blood and came back to me and said, we ran the test for celiac and you have the antibodies that would indicate that you have celiac, which could be why you’re getting these headaches. And I’m like, huh, that’s very crazy. You know, unrelated — but my husband has had migraines since high school, and he’s actually had no gluten for 10 years — not because he’s celiac, but because it triggers migraines in him. So we already don’t eat that much gluten in our house. But I definitely eat gluten on my own. I’m a big pizza lover. And he tells me I might have this and I should come get an endoscopy to check. And I go, they do the test to see if my villi are flattened or if they’re fine, and it turns out they’re flattened. So I have early — he diagnosed me with early celiac — and said that it was probably the cause of my headaches. And I’m like, but you don’t understand, I did two weeks of no gluten and no dairy and no sugar and it didn’t help. So how could it possibly be gluten? And it turns out two weeks was just not long enough. Once I actually did it for about a month, the headaches slowly were going away. And also other digestive issues that I was experiencing — that actually, now when I think back, I have been experiencing for much of my life, that I always just thought were the product of having coffee in the morning, or just the way my bowels move. Like I always had loose stool. That completely went away, and I started having like good poops for the first time in my life. And no headaches. And was able to drink coffee without running to the bathroom immediately after. And so around February/March was like the time of my life when things were starting to improve after that whole few months of doctors and confusion and not knowing what was happening. But the period still was very whack. So as I mentioned, it never came back that second time. I had to go to the gynecologist to get a progesterone supplement to trigger a bleed, to hopefully fix things. And I think that maybe is what worked and fixed things. But I will say, I went off in October thinking I was going to wait until the following October before we were going to try. But for anyone who is like me — it was pretty much like I went off, and then the next day I wanted to be pregnant. So I should have gone off way sooner. But I definitely wanted to start trying sooner than I initially thought. And I am grateful for all the stuff I went through between October and January because technically, there were other reasons why I wasn’t able to try yet at that point — my husband and I were still waiting on some genetic results that we wanted to know before we tried. But aside from that, I was just waiting because I didn’t feel good. And I’m grateful that all happened, because by the time we were cleared to try, my health was in such a better place. And I feel like it maybe would have been even harder. I already had to work around these long cycles when it came to trying to conceive and figuring out ovulation. Most people ovulate on day 14. My ovulation was like day 30. So I had extra long time to wait between cycles. And I already had to deal with that. But I feel like if on top of it I had still been eating gluten, it probably would have delayed things. If I still had headaches, it would have delayed things for a number of reasons — if not only because I wouldn’t have wanted to have sex during that time. But I’m grateful that I cleared all that up, and that we were actually able to try around February/March and got pregnant relatively quickly. But oh, it was such a journey.

Lisa: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s interesting in the sense that a couple things — so, you know, in addition to all the things we’ve talked about, hormonal contraceptives are associated with gut issues. We talked a little bit about how it disrupts the microflora. But for individuals who potentially have either a susceptibility to celiac, colitis, Crohn’s, IBS, other types of issues — it’s known to worsen those things, possibly because of the way that it just disrupts the microflora. But that’s a known connection, and there’s a lot of research to show that. But what’s also interesting is that it seems as though, possibly, it was masking some stuff for you. Because as soon as you came off of it is when all this stuff showed up. And so I think this is a really just important reminder — you know, when it comes to the pill and fertility, one of the things I always say is, like, yeah, it’d be easy if we could just throw the pill into the bus and blame it for everything. But ultimately, the biggest way that the pill impacts fertility — other than the temporary delay in the return of normal fertility post-pill, which is transient for the most part — is that if there is an underlying issue, the pill masks those issues. So if you are not ovulating regularly, if your cycles wouldn’t be consistent — you wouldn’t know, because the pill would make you bleed every 28 days. So when you came off the pill, it revealed what was actually happening. And that gave you an opportunity to kind of sort that out. And it seems excessive when someone like me comes around and says, you know, if you’re planning to conceive in the future, give yourself 18 months to two years, like, come off when you’re still actively avoiding before you start trying. It seems ridiculous, it seems crazy. But there are some women who are going to come off and they’re just going to ovulate 14 days later, their cycles are going to be relatively consistent off the bat. But there are other women, like in your case, where you had to really figure out what was going on. And it sounds like when you conceived, your cycles hadn’t even normalized yet. So you were able to conceive because of the charting aspects, and your body was obviously ready. But ultimately, your cycles hadn’t normalized yet. You still were in that transition phase.

Lucie: Yep. I had a — you know, after the 50-day cycle I had like a 100-day — I don’t know. It took a while before I took the progesterone. And then after that it was basically like another 49-day cycle, and then the next cycle was when we actually got pregnant. Which was — I guess I can’t say — well, I have a chart here of what day in my cycle I conceived. I ovulated on cycle day 29. So would have been a 40-plus-day cycle again. And yeah, if it wasn’t for podcasts like yours and all the information I read about understanding the timing of a cycle, I don’t think I would have even understood that, like, when you have a particularly long cycle, it’s the follicular phase that’s the long part. And that once you ovulate, it will pretty much be the same amount of time — 10 to 14 days — before your period comes. And that it’s a normal luteal phase, but it’s the follicular phase that’s long. And so it was just so many days in a row of using OPKs and seeing when my ovulation came — not knowing if it was going to be more normal every month, getting shorter and shorter, or if it was going to be on day 30. And thankfully there were no other fertility issues — whether that be male factor infertility or any other reason why my body couldn’t hold a fertilized embryo — but it was just extra stressful to have to know that if it didn’t work in any given month, I had probably double the amount of time that most women have between when I can try again. And so that was a little stressful.

Lisa: Yeah, of course. Well, and then in the future — right, to be announced once baby arrives and you kind of go through that postpartum stage and everything — when your cycles return, it’s kind of like a wild card. So there’s the possibility that when they return, they’ll actually return and be fairly normal, because you’re eating differently now, you’re a lot more aware of the specific challenges that you’re facing with your own body. And so it’s certainly possible. One of the things I share with all of my clients who’ve had difficulties conceiving, depending on, you know, some clients took longer than others, is that you just never know. So when your cycle returns, you kind of can’t assume that it’s going to be hard for you to get pregnant. Right? Because you could also have the situation where you conceive. And it’s always fine, depending on what you want. But as a mom, you know, sometimes the scariest thought for me is like that Irish twin scenario. I’m sure it’s wonderful. Right, it always works out. But it’s just one of those things. Especially for the listeners who may have been in a similar situation. But I suppose, moving forward, you’ll have so much more information about your cycle and how it relates to your health, and you’ll have that opportunity to kind of hone your cycles. And I’m sure you’ll really appreciate it when you have those kind of regular, normal cycles that your body is doing.

Lucie: I mean, I only had a few periods post-pill, but I was so excited about getting my period. I was so excited about feeling ovulation pains for the first time. I was so excited getting positive LH tests and confirming that my body was doing these things. I think also the temperature charting was so crazy for me, because I was pretty much convinced before I started doing it that there’s no way my body was going to show a temperature increase in the luteal phase, because I’ve gone through my whole life — obviously, we know I was on the pill — but I’ve gone through my whole life without feeling any noticeable difference between the two phases of my cycle. So why would there be an actual degree difference in my temperature? But lo and behold, there’s my chart — pretty much like a textbook — of my 97s and then my dipped dip and spike to the 98s for the whole luteal phase, and then it comes back down the day I get my period. And I thought that was fascinating. Plus all the cervical mucus charting — I was just like hands deep, no pun intended, in learning about this and charting. And so I can say with confidence that when I am postpartum, I will not be going back on birth control. And even in the time when I’m really actually hoping to not conceive, I will be using a combination of temperature charting and fertility awareness with condoms at different times in the month if I’m feeling a little unsafe. But I am over the pill for my life.

Lisa: And actually, I think my twin sister, who is obviously my same age but not in a relationship — I think she’s even a better example of a person who’s now off the pill. She also followed suit, read all the books I read, went off, and she’s been getting super into charting her own fertility. She recently went to get her follicles checked and see how many she has. And we’ve grown such a close bond just talking about this and sharing our temperatures and stories with each other. But I think she’s a better example for these young people who really don’t want to get pregnant. Because I think it’s easy for me as a married person who obviously now I am pregnant — so now no one’s looking to me as a birth control example. But a few months ago, I did do a partnership with Natural Cycles, the thermometer for birth control. And that was in a time when I was actively trying to avoid, because we hadn’t had genetic results back yet. And I think, you know, some people who are still skeptical about these natural, hormone-free methods — it’s kind of easy for you to promote this because you’re married, and if you do happen to get pregnant, it’s not like it’s the end of your world. And I understand — like, that’s a position I’m in today, or that I was in a couple of months ago. It’s not the position I felt like I was in in high school by any means, and even post-college, before getting married, and even after getting married. There was a long time when I felt like if I did get pregnant, I maybe wouldn’t even keep it, because like, I’m not ready for this. And so I understand people thinking, like, it’s easy for a married person to say. But what about us singletons running around who don’t want to be a single mom and like don’t want to just get pregnant? And I think my sister is a good example of someone who is using this method accurately, paired with condoms when necessary, and is probably a better example of a young person who’s not on the pill.

Lisa: Yeah. And I mean, it is what it is. I think that there’s certainly that stereotype that the only people that would want to use fertility awareness are the ones that are okay if an oopsie happens. Right? But you know, for the first half of my kind of sexually active life, I was absolutely not trying to have a baby. So I have been using fertility awareness for years — since I was 18 — and absolutely not in the middle of my university years did I want to have any children. And there are plenty of women who use fertility awareness who never want kids. And you know, some people — for them it’s very serious. Maybe there’s a health issue, maybe it’s just a personal choice that they never want to have children. But there are plenty of women who do this. And I always wonder about that argument, because let’s say you are listening and you are a woman who never wants kids, ever. Does that mean that you want to be on a synthetic hormone forever? Does that mean that that’s the only option for you? Because you don’t want to have kids, it means that you can’t have a life without being on hormones for the rest of your life? You have to be dependent on a pharmaceutical company forever? So I mean, everyone’s different on that spectrum. For me personally, it’s quite obvious that I wasn’t comfortable — because there were too many unknowns for me. A lot of the women in my family had challenges with their health, and I always had this thing in the back of my mind that I didn’t want to add any additional potential challenges to my situation. And I’m not the only one out there like that. I’m not the only one out there that doesn’t really love taking medication. And the idea of having to take a medication every day for my whole life wasn’t something I was comfortable with. Everyone doesn’t share my perspective, but I know that there are a lot of women out there like that, who are kind of like, I don’t really want to have to take a medication my whole life. Like, why can’t I just be in my body, you know?

Lisa: And so for those of you who are listening who might fall into that — when I announced that I went off the pill, I can’t even tell you how many messages I got from people being like, oh, how exciting, you’re starting family planning. Like they just assumed that going off meant we’re starting. Which, you know, it’s kind of funny because like, that is obviously why I went off. But it shouldn’t have to be — that’s not why my sister went off. It shouldn’t have to be the reason.

Lisa: I really appreciate you, Lucie, for coming on the show and sharing your story. And I mean, we could talk all day long. This is so informative. We definitely could. But I really appreciate you going into it and into so much depth and sharing the different aspects of your journey. And I think that for a lot of women who take the pill, one of the most common things that I hear all the time is like, I was on the pill for years and I was fine. And I always find that when I really get in there and have these conversations and ask certain questions — even the question of, you know, did anything change when you went off the pill — because I’ve had a number of conversations with women who were like, my experience was great. But it’s kind of like, but then when I went off of it, I realized that my libido came back, and my moods were kind of different. And you know, certain things that you didn’t really realize had been affecting you on it. And even in your case — on it, you didn’t notice. You didn’t tell us about any emotional things or any depression or anything like that. But you had your gallbladder removed, and then you came off, and the celiac thing kind of arose. And those are the kinds of challenges that many women experience, and even their medical doctors aren’t necessarily connecting those dots. And so we can’t ever know a hundred percent. But I feel like enough of these stories — like, go back and listen to the Pill Reality series — enough of these stories add up, and we can’t just keep gaslighting women and telling them that it’s not related. Like, you just can’t keep doing that. It’s just not okay.

Lucie: Absolutely. And I mean, I think it just speaks to the fact that so many people experience such different symptoms from the pill that I had my own fair share of things. But I didn’t experience any emotional or libido-related issues. Like, I definitely felt like at my highest libido when I was on the pill, probably maybe just because I was a teenager. But I didn’t feel that. And you know, I’ve listened to your podcast, I’ve listened to the Pill Reality series, and I know other people have such opposite experiences. So it really is one of those — take from this what you need personally. And I do notice that of the people who comment in response to the things I’m sharing about the pill and sort of defend it — you know, I obviously understand the female rights implications of the pill and how much it’s done for the women’s rights movement, as well as I’m all for people having access to birth control. Like, there’s a million reasons why I’m not advocating to get rid of the pill. I just think that when people get a little bit defensive about it because they haven’t had any issues on it — I think that’s usually them coming from a place of feeling like what we’re saying is telling them that they’re doing something wrong, and feeling like they’re being targeted when they feel like they haven’t had any side effects. So why should they come off it? And their doctor says it’s safe. So why are we stirring the pot? And I understand feeling that way, and feeling triggered by someone posting something about a drug that you’re on, and about a drug that you like. So I get it. But I think this conversation — it should be for everyone. But if it’s not speaking to you, if it’s not for you, and it’s not something that you feel like is a big issue in your life, then you can kind of move past this. But there are plenty of people out there who are on the pill where there are problems. And those are the people whose attention I want to capture, and who I want to hear this and make changes based on this.

Lisa: You really put into words something that I’ve never really put into words. I think I’m just really glad that you said that, because when I think about these podcasts — I mean, anyone who listens long enough knows who I’m talking to when I’m thinking of who the listener is. It’s my clients. It’s the women who I work with. It’s the women who are in the community. And it’s the women who have had negative experiences with birth control, who’ve gone to their doctors and had their doctors tell them it’s not related, who’ve been looking for answers and can’t find them anywhere, and who are doing that desperate Googling in the middle of the night. These are the women who I’m talking to. Because ultimately, for all the women who don’t experience any side effects, who may get defensive — I took it. What kind of a person would I be if I was like, you can’t take the pill? I took the pill. I mean, hello. I took it for three months post-operation. So I mean, right? So this isn’t like yeah. And I always do my best to make that very clear. So if it wasn’t, hopefully it’s clear now. But ultimately, I do this for the women who need help and can’t get it. That’s what this is about. It’s about the women who have — like, they’re listening to this episode and they’re like, oh my goodness, I’ve been having gallbladder issues. I had no idea that it could be related. We’re talking to you. We’re talking to the women who had the migraine with aura and went to the doctor and even said like, I read that it’s not okay. And it was like, that’s fine. Like, we’re talking to you. That’s what this is about.

Lisa: So we’re going to wrap because it’s been a while and I know you’ve got things to do. So just tell us a little bit before you go — tell us a little bit about what you do, your YouTube channel, all the amazing work that you’ve done. Just tell us all the things and where to find you.

Lucie: Yes, absolutely. So I am a video producer, lifestyle host. I live in New York City. I used to work full-time at Refinery29, so a lot of people found me through my Refinery29 videos. But as of 2019, I went off on my own. And so I today run my own media company, Lucie Fink Media. My platforms — I’m kind of on all the social platforms, but my biggest two are YouTube and Instagram. So if you just go to YouTube and search Lucie Fink, spelled L-U-C-I-E, and my Instagram is @LucieBFink. And I share lifestyle content. In more recent days, I’ve been sort of heading down the route of a bit of what I’m calling digital education — a lot of content where I’m teaching people how to create content. And I do private coaching and consulting for people who want to learn how to produce videos or edit videos or shoot. I really love the technical back-end side of video production, so I teach private classes about Adobe Premiere. And also more recently, I’ve gotten into other forms of education. Because I became a creative writing major, I am obsessed with English and English grammar. So I’ve started a whole English grammar series on my social media. TikTok has kind of fallen in the mix there too. And I just create a lot of, I hope, entertaining and educational lifestyle content. And in more recent days, I’ve been transitioning, especially on YouTube, towards some — I guess what are considered taboo topics unfortunately — but I’ve made a lot of videos about coming off the pill, about the menstrual cup, different ways I’ve started to learn about my body in the past few months. I’m doing more partnerships with brands that are speaking to me in that realm. And if you just go to YouTube, that’s where you can find a lot of those recent videos. So if you type in like Lucie Fink gallbladder — it’s called My Surgery Story — that video will come up. And that was the video I made like right after the surgery, before I found out the cause. And then there’s also the menstrual cup videos, and more recent videos are about the things I’m learning about my vagina. I talk a lot about your podcast in that and just share about how all the things I’ve been learning about temperature charting and cycle charting and fertility, which I just learned from you. No one taught me that before I met you on the internet.

And then, you know, by the time this podcast comes out — which I think is mid-to-end of June — I will have shared publicly that I’m pregnant. So there will probably be content on my YouTube channel right now that is either announcing — I know I have a video going live on the day I’m going to announce, that’s just sort of like a vlog update announcing that I’m pregnant. But then I have a lot of content coming out in the next few weeks about our pregnancy journey, and just a lot of what we just talked about here, from the day I went off the pill until we ultimately conceived, all the stuff I went through. As well as, you know, I’m going to have video content sharing my all the exciting pregnancy announcements — telling my twin sister that I was pregnant, telling our families. And I’m hoping to just expand into more pregnancy and motherhood type content as time goes on.

Lisa: Oh, that sounds amazing. And congratulations. We’re all very excited for you.

Lucie: Thank you. I’m just starting to feel a little bit better as the first trimester is coming to a close, so I’m praying that this is not going to revert and go back to the nausea that I was feeling a couple of weeks ago.

Lisa: Oh yes. I hope. I’m wishing you a wonderful second trimester. It doesn’t always happen that way, but many women find some relief once the placenta takes over the majority of the hormone production and you are no longer feeling like you want to vomit every two minutes. I was one of the pregnant people that, yeah, that you would hate, because I didn’t have any nausea. I sailed through pregnancy. I’m like, I just won’t talk about my experience because it was pretty boring and wonderful.

Lucie: I mean, I’ve already told my husband that he has to carry our next baby because it’s a lot of work for one person.

Lisa: He’ll get his work in on the back end, right? Like when the baby’s here. He will.

Lucie: Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa: But thank you so much, Lucie. This was really, really great. I’m really excited to share this interview, and we wish you the very best — really excited for you and your growing family.

Lucie: Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening.

Lisa: Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it with a friend. You’ll find the show notes page for today’s episode over at fertilityfriday.com/369. I hope that you enjoyed today’s episode with Lucie. What a powerful episode. I just want to thank Lucie once again for taking the time to share with us her story and really take us through the details of it and the experience of it and really paint the picture. If any of you who are listening have had a similar experience, or if you’ve been on contraceptives before and you started to develop gallbladder issues and had no idea that it could possibly be related — hopefully an episode like this will at least let you know that it’s not in your head. And it does happen. And there’s a reason why that particular side effect is written on the insert, along with so many other side effects. And that information is coming directly from the drug company. And honestly, I certainly suggest that if you’re taking any kind of medication, it is really interesting and important to consider going straight to the company itself and reading the insert that they provide you — reading the information that they are required by law to give you as a consumer, so that you can make an informed decision about what you’re taking. And it’s so interesting in Lucie’s case, because even the doctors didn’t think it could be related, even though it was literally written on the pamphlet.