Overcoming Endometriosis Symptoms Naturally (Episode 465)

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: This is the Fertility Friday podcast, episode number 465.

Welcome to the Fertility Friday podcast, your source for information about the Fertility Awareness Method and all things fertility. I’m your host, Lisa Hendrickson-Jack. I’m the author of The Fifth Vital Sign and the Fertility Awareness Mastery Training Workbook. I’m a certified Fertility Awareness Educator and Holistic Reproductive Health Practitioner with over 20 years of experience teaching women to connect to their fifth vital sign through menstrual cycle training, balancing hormone health, and optimizing the menstrual cycle without hormones.

I have been consistently outspoken about hormonal birth control over the past two decades and its impact on fertility and overall health because you have the right to know how your body works and how artificial hormones disrupt that natural process. I teach women’s health professionals how to utilize the menstrual cycle as a vital sign in their practices. And I host live coaching programs to help you achieve optimal fertility and health because it’s important to have healthy menstrual cycles regardless of whether or not you want to have babies. I’m also a wife and mother of two beautiful boys and a brand new baby girl. This podcast is designed to empower you to take full control of your cycles, your fertility, and your overall health. And I’m so excited that you’re here with me today.

Today, I’m sharing a brand new episode of my FAM Reality Series. I’m sharing my interview with Mary. She is sharing her experience overcoming endo symptoms, her experience with surgery as well as natural means, lifestyle changes, and how it all shaped out. She also shares what she would have done differently and her reflections on how everything went down. Definitely a good interview to listen to, especially if you have struggled with some of those similar symptoms, such as painful periods, or if you suspect or have confirmed that you have endo. Without further ado, let’s go ahead and jump into today’s episode with Mary.

And I’m really excited to be here today with Mary. Mary is a member of my Fertility Awareness Mastery Live group program. And we are actually recording this episode a little bit after we had our last session together. And this has been kind of a really fun way to do it this time, because then I’m able to check in what has happened since the class. Without further ado, welcome to the show, Mary.

Mary: Thanks, Lisa. Super excited to be here with you. Can’t wait to get into all the details today and share some updates with you.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Awesome. Well, I really appreciate you being here. I feel like I always say these are my favorite episodes because they’re fun. And also it gives us more of an opportunity to connect. I’ve actually been talking all day, so hopefully I can get through this podcast without totally fumbling over everything, but I’ll give it a go. Where I always like to start is by telling everyone a little bit about you. I’d love to hear a little bit about when you first started menstruating. And if you have birth control history and basically what led you to want to learn fertility awareness now, and I suppose you can kind of weave in where your professional life also blends into that.

Mary: Sounds good. All right. I started menstruating when I was 13 years old. It’s interesting as I reflect and think about that time in my life because I was going through so many changes socially, emotionally. I just remember it being a difficult time for me. I was sneaking pads from my mom’s room. And then finally, when I told her, she’s like, why didn’t you tell me? But I do remember having menstrual cramps my first time ever bleeding.

Fast forward a little bit to me being in high school, met my first boyfriend. I grew up in a family where there wasn’t a lot of conversations around having sex in general. My best way to protect my body during that time was to go to the local clinic, which you could do when you were, I think, 14 and get birth control, which is crazy. I wasn’t 14 when I got it, but from about age 15 to my early 20s, 20 or 21, I was taking the birth control pill.

And then I did get an IUD and I had an IUD in for a couple of years because when I was 18, I started to have some really severe pelvic pain and cramps. And after investigation working with an OB-GYN, they decided that we should do a surgery to see if I had endometriosis. I had my first surgery when I was around 18 years old. And I did have some lesions on my uterus and I also had a cyst on one of my fallopian tubes. That was removed. I was still on the IUD for a year or two after that.

That was a lot, but just diving into what at that point I think really started my healing journey of really being like, what is going on with my body? What’s going on with my menstruation? What’s going on with my hormones? At that time I didn’t know any better. I was still a very young woman and I wanted to stay on birth control because I was still sexually active and had a boyfriend at the time.

But I continued to have these big endometriosis flare-ups every couple years. I ended up in a span of five or six years having three surgeries, laparoscopic surgeries to have endometriosis removed. And from what I can remember, it wasn’t like the endometriosis was everywhere. There were a few lesions each time, but because they were already in there during the surgery, they just removed them.

Around the time that I was really feeling like I needed to make a big shift in my life for my cycle, but also for myself, something hit me and I was just like, I can’t do this anymore. I can’t just keep going and getting surgery after surgery done. I can’t be on the birth control anymore. They wanted to put me on different hormones and they made me feel terrible. I kind of just decided to quit cold turkey. I was like, okay, I’m done. I’m going to try to find a new way to support my body and to heal.

And I remember going into an herb shop in Reno, where I was living at the time, and picking up Rosemary Gladstar’s book, Healing Herbs for Women. And she has a couple formulas in there for endometriosis and all kinds of things. And that was it. I was like, okay, there’s another way.

My cycles did resume after I stopped taking birth control in my mid-20s. And they were very, very short, like 20-day cycles and very light, but they resumed, so that was exciting for me. And at that time, I also decided to go to school and I was on track to go to nursing school. And then I found a school in Portland, Oregon called NUNM, National University of Natural Medicine. And I changed my whole trajectory and I was like, I’m not going to go to nursing school, I’m going to do pre-med and natural medicine instead. That’s what led me to where I am now, which we can talk more about later, but as my work as a clinical herbalist.

I would say through going through school and learning more about the menstrual cycle, learning more about hormones, learning more about how to take care of my body in all different ways, not just through herbal medicine, but through foods and nourishment and sleep and managing stress, I really felt like my body started to heal.

I had heard about people taking their temperatures, but I didn’t really know anything about that. And then I picked up the book, Taking Charge of Your Fertility, right? Is that what it’s called? I rented it from the library at NUNM. And it was really hard to read, but I did my best to get through that. And I started tracking then, but I still didn’t have a really good grasp on things. And then it wasn’t until Lisa, you released The Fifth Vital Sign that I was like, all right, I can do this, at least have more understanding because you explain things so clearly and wonderfully in that book. And here I am now.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, thank you for taking us through all of that. I mean, what a journey, right? That’s a lot. It’s like two lifetimes worth of things. I usually like to kind of jump into a couple pieces and I’m thinking, well, maybe share a little bit about your endo journey. I know you gave us the timeline description, but that’s challenging to have such difficult periods and also to have the surgeries. Maybe just share a little bit more about that and what that was like and where you’re at now with everything.

Mary: At the time in the past, it seemed like when I would have a surgery, it would give me relief for six months, maybe a year, but then the symptoms would come back, even more intense each time. At first, I think I did feel some hope at the time, but then it seemed like they were just coming back stronger and stronger.

I think it was an extremely difficult time for me as a woman, as a young woman. I didn’t really know anybody else that had been through anything similar. And the only information that I had was what doctors were telling me. And what allopathic doctors are telling me is the only way that we can treat this is hormones, birth control, and getting the surgery. And that kind of felt like gloom and doom. I was like, gosh, well, I guess I’m going to keep doing this, but I really started to sit with it more. And I was like, there’s got to be something else that I can do.

I think emotionally it was a really difficult time for me. I felt really depressed during that time. And I just felt really unsupported. It’s important to share that it’s a difficult thing to go through.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: I think you basically answered the question. And when you were talking about it, you said you felt unsupported. I feel like I just want to ask a little bit more about that. I mean, obviously you had medical care, but when you say you feel unsupported, was it because the treatments weren’t working or was it because you didn’t feel like you were being heard? What did you mean by that?

Mary: I think both of those things, definitely. The treatments were giving me some relief but I definitely didn’t feel really deeply seen and heard and like I was getting answers that were actually getting to the root of what was causing the endometriosis to keep happening. And I also think it was just a difficult time for me with my family dynamic and relationally with the relationship that I was in at that time. I think that was hard for me to feel like emotionally, like you can get through this and you got this, but it was just difficult.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: I just feel like your experience having the surgeries and having it actually help a bit, but then not to be a permanent solution. It’s a hard one. But so many women look to the surgery as the answer. I feel like a lot of women, maybe they’ve kind of put it off or they think, okay, well, maybe someday. And they try other things thinking, okay, the surgery is going to be the ultimate thing that is going to help. And I’m sure for some women, it does.

But in your case, you had three of them and it was, obviously it meant that the first two didn’t give you the results that you were hoping for, at least in the long term. I feel like that’s a really important story to be heard when it comes to endo, that sometimes the surgery can be helpful, but even in your case, you decided. It was interesting to hear you talk about that, because eventually you were just like, okay, enough, I’ve done this three times, and that’s not giving me the results I want.

Mary: Yeah, definitely. And I also think something I’m thinking about right now is how back to the emotional piece of it. I think it’s so difficult for so many people that are in this experience, especially round one of surgery, because as you know, the only way to diagnose endometriosis is to do the surgery so they can physically see it. It’s a big, fear-mongering waiting game of, is it endometriosis or is it something else? I just think there’s a lot of fear wrapped up in that.

But ultimately, I have to thank my mom a little bit for this, always questioning the medical system because she’s gone through a lot of health stuff. And she also raised us with some natural means, would give us a homeopathic thing here and herb here. And even in the 90s was feeding us some organic food, which was pretty cool. But I just really started to question everything. And that ultimately led me to making that shift. It was one of the best decisions I think I’ve ever made for my body.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, do you want to talk a little bit about what you tried? Share a little bit for the listeners who maybe tuned into this episode because I’m sure I’m putting endo in the title. Share the different approach that you took after you got set up with everything.

Mary: Yeah, definitely. As I mentioned, I started trying a couple of different herbal formulas from the Healing Herbs for Women book. They were specific for endometriosis. I think some tinctures and some teas. I don’t remember exactly what they were now. It’s been almost 10 years. But that’s what I was doing, drinking a lot of raspberry leaf tea.

And I also was doing a lot of vaginal steams and castor oil packs. And I think in addition to the herbs I was doing internally, the steams and the castor oil packs were the life-changing things. Because again, after I stopped taking the birth control and stopped having the surgeries, I was menstruating regularly, but my cycles were every 20 days. I was really tired and I knew that I needed some support and clearing a lot of that scar tissue out of my uterus.

I think having the steams, having that direct contact, and also the castor oil packs, getting in and supporting the lymph and the inflammation, that really helped. And I definitely leaned on some plant friends like cramp bark and ginger for menstrual cramps and pain.

I also started going to acupuncture at that time and that was something that was very impactful. Just receiving that nourishment from somebody who I felt really heard me, saw me in my experience and could tell me that there was another way.

And changing my diet radically. I think I was undereating for most of my life. I grew up eating a very omnivore diet, but going through high school and early 20s, just eating fast food. And when I would cook at home, it was still processed food with other foods that maybe weren’t the best choices, not the worst, but I still wasn’t eating enough.

And I almost never ate breakfast. Up until I was 25, I just never ate breakfast or I would eat a banana. And I think that had a huge impact on my hormones and my level of stress and my blood sugar, all the things, my ability to handle stress. I started eating breakfast. That was the biggest thing. And I pretty much started cooking all my own food. I grew up in a household that cooked a lot with my nana and my mother. I started to really enjoy nourishing myself in that way as well. And now my meals are amazing.

I always wish I could cook for other women in this way. And that’s how I encourage my clients, of course, and my community. But the food piece was huge too. I just wasn’t ever eating enough. I wasn’t eating enough protein. I wasn’t getting enough dense, healthy fats. That was really impactful to my young, growing body.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, I know that’s very important. There’s people who hear this type of information and kind of don’t respond well because they just feel like, “Oh, this isn’t scientific. And what do you mean steaming?” Because there’s plenty of doctors, there’s at least a few quite prominent doctors out there who are very anti-steaming. With that person in mind, given your experience with it, you feel like it helped. And what would you want to say, just because I find it really interesting how agitated vaginal steaming is for some people?

Mary: Yeah, definitely. I think it’s great you bring that up. And I’ve also experienced that in my personal and professional life. It’s something that there’s a lot of question around. But I could preface with saying it may not be for everyone, but for those that do experience it and try it, it could be life-changing and it could be really helpful.

It is something that has ancestrally been practiced in lots of different cultures for a very long time. Although it maybe hasn’t been researched or it’s not backed in that sense, we know that women have been doing this practice for longer than we probably know.

To more directly talk about how it helped me, specifically what you shared as well, I was having shorter cycles, I was also having a lot of clotting, brown bleeding, and light bleeding. And I felt my body wanting to be like, I can actually bleed more and I can shed more from my endometrium, but it couldn’t physically do that. And I correlated that to a lot of the scar tissue from the surgeries.

What we talk about in Eastern medicine as a cold tissue state. That part of my body had experienced a lot of trauma from the surgeries, the lack of menstruation, or hormonal things going on. I think it is beautiful in a sense that something as simple as putting herbs in warm water and having that warmth and those herbs travel up and actually lay their magical herb constituents on the tissues gave those tissues relief. And I was able to physically cleanse and shed what didn’t want to be there.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: You feel like it helped you when you had your periods essentially to actually release more of what was there that didn’t seem to be coming out. What I’ll do is I’ll link some of the previous episodes for anyone who is interested in this topic and wants to listen a little bit more, learn a little bit more about it.

But one of the things I remember, I interviewed Rosita Arvigo a long time ago, and she talked about how after the first steam, you might notice a bunch of stuff coming out. I believe she said, “hamburger meat,” so some women see a lot of different clotting. I would imagine that everyone’s experience was a little bit different, but she was basically hinting at the fact that if you are doing it for a reason, you might end up clearing out some things that might even look a little unsettling the first couple of periods you have after you start.

It’s an interesting conversation. I know that there’s a lot of things that I talk about in the podcast that I’m able to pull tons of research studies and talk about, and especially with my new FAM Research series, I’m actually going through and talking about specific research papers. And with vaginal steaming, there is some smaller-scale research, at a grassroots level, but just not at the level. But I suppose the question to ask yourself if you are truly science-minded is, does the lack of research mean that the practice couldn’t work, or does the lack of research mean that we can’t research it yet or there’s no funding, or who’s going to do it? So there’s the question. I’ll leave that right there.

I think to kind of shift away from the endo part of your story, one of the last questions I want to ask you, and I’m pretty sure that we talked about this in the class, if you would share with us, when you were in the midst of your endo during the time when you were having the surgeries and kind of going back and forth with physicians on it, share with us on a scale of 0 to 10 what the pain was like at that time when you had your period compared to now.

Mary: Well, pain-wise, I definitely experienced some level 10s in a lot of the stages of my endometriosis journey. I think that started to shift to maybe more like five, six, as I was still starting to incorporate other means of healing. And now I don’t experience much pain at all. Maybe zero is usually what I experience. I really have no to very little cramping. I know I’m going to start bleeding because I’m in tune with my body and tracking my cycle. But occasionally maybe a one, when I have some cramping come up, but it’s night and day how it’s transformed. That’s exciting to share.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, and it just gives hope. And it’s just so ironic in your story that it was kind of after a lot of those medical interventions. I mean, looking back, do you feel like the medical interventions did help in some way? I mean, they go in there and cut out the endometriotic lesions and tissues and things like that. Do you feel like you did benefit in some way from that? Or if you could go back, would you do it again? Or would you have not done the surgery? I’m just actually more curious of how you look at it.

Mary: I mean, I think initially, if I’m trying to reason with where I was at in myself, especially the first time, I think I did feel like it helped then. But if I could look back and wrap my 18-year-old self up and take her away and educate her in these other ways, I think I could have gotten through it without having the surgical interventions. And I do think that absolutely I could have healed through it without having the surgery.

But it’s interesting to think about. And I’ve also worked with women in my practice that feel like they have either undiagnosed endometriosis or they’ve had it diagnosed and they don’t want to do the surgery. And they’re working with me and a lot of other holistic practitioners. But I’ve seen amazing improvements in them and I think that gives me hope just in reflecting on my own journey. I’m like, what would it have been like if I had not done it?

But I don’t know if I can answer that super straight. I think in some ways it did help me. And part of me reflects and thinks, if I hadn’t done it, then I might not be where I am now, right? Or what else would have happened.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, and when looking at the endometriosis research, there are studies on the recurrence rate, meaning when they do surgery, how many women experience a return of it. That is obviously something that would be worthwhile speaking to your surgeon about. And I’ll link a recent episode about endometriosis that I recorded and shared. I think it was Jenna Riesch. She shared some interesting insights also, if you’re thinking about surgery and the importance of finding a trained surgeon, because there’s different surgical procedures and then different surgeons have different levels of experience and surgical experiences based on hours in the OR.

You could have somebody who has way more hours in the OR with your particular type of surgery who was trained in a different method that results in less scar tissue and less recurrence and all of that. It’s a whole thing. By no means would I say that I’m discouraging or encouraging. I think that it’s important for us to all have the information.

Another thing in the back of my mind that I’m thinking along these lines, in your case also, Mary, is if you had known what you know now, even after the first surgery, what if you had been able to implement that, maybe instead of having it recur to that degree. We can’t go back, but I think having this conversation is hopefully helpful for anyone who’s listening who may be concerned that they may have endo or that they’re thinking about that. We don’t have the answers for you today for your specific situation with regards to endo, but just lots of things to think about. I don’t think you could ever say okay, no one should ever have surgery. I also don’t think we could ever say surgery is totally going to fix it. I think there has to be some sort of combination.

Mary: Definitely. And it’s going to be different for each person and their needs, right? And not only their needs, but how they need to feel supported at that time. I think it’s absolutely okay for that to be a combination or for somebody just to have choice. And I know that you talk about this with a lot of women too, we have choices when it comes to our bodies. But I think that’s just something that needs to continue to be spoken about.

And not only the choices to do different things as far as treatment or prevention or healing, but also choices about who we see as practitioners and the kind of people that we get to be in connection with on our healing journeys. Because like you’re sharing about, I listened to that podcast by the way, and I really enjoyed it, but different practitioners know different things and have different training. And that’s really important in your research for yourself, for your own autonomy. And you wouldn’t necessarily know that when you’re at that stage, unless someone told you.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: I always say it’s unfair because if you’re just going about your life, it’s unfair to have to think about all these different things. You should just be able to go to the doctor and just be supported. But you do have to think about these things. And especially if you’re thinking about surgery, having the right surgeon can be the difference between having the condition dramatically improve versus having to have multiple surgeries. Not that even if you have the most skilled surgeon, it could still come back. But I think everyone kind of gets what I’m saying.

As we shift, maybe we should shift gears into a little bit more of the session part. We were in class together. And at the time we were going through the class, I think we were focused on birth control with the possibility of conception in the future. Just to check in, since the class has finished, how do you feel? How has it been charting? Where are you at in terms of your comfort with the method itself? And what questions can I help you with today?

Mary: Yeah, thank you. It’s been feeling really good, just feeling like I am literally in a daily rhythm and routine of charting. I’m definitely feeling a lot more comfortable with some of the Justisse annotations per cervical mucus, which I think was my biggest learning curve, understanding all the numbers in addition to the sensation and all the things. But I’m feeling pretty good. I’m almost there. I rarely have to look at my book anymore.

My partner and I, we haven’t started trying again, but I feel like I’m getting closer to that time. And he is also finally going to get a sperm analysis done, which is a big piece of it too. Because like I shared with you in the class, Lisa, I’ll share that with your listeners now for context, we did try for a couple months this last summer. And I wasn’t diligently charting then. I was basing it more off when I would have lubricative, peak mucus, and I didn’t conceive.

That also just really propelled me to be like, okay, I need to do one of Lisa’s masterclasses and really start charting diligently again. It’s exciting. I’m going to learn the Justisse method in addition to that. But the sperm analysis is a huge thing that we spoke a lot about in class as well and blew my mind when we had that class about sperm specifically.

I’m really curious to see if there’s anything there. Because I feel like my body is doing pretty well and I feel vital, I feel healthy. Of course, there’s always things that I can continually be improving and nourishing for myself, but this is not a one-way street. It takes sperm and eggs to make a baby. And I want to look at all the pieces.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Awesome. It’s so interesting how the charting aspect of it, when you start charting, how it can change your perspective on things. And just as a comment, I think it can be really unnerving after a lifetime of being told that we can get pregnant every single day to start trying for a baby and not get pregnant right away. It can be really discouraging and also really terrifying.

I’m just taking this opportunity to kind of point out that although it seems totally counterintuitive, the average time it takes the average healthy couple to conceive is about four months, about four cycles. That amounts to about a 25 percent chance per cycle. And that’s when everything is fine. That’s when both people are relatively healthy.

It can just be so strange. And it makes me think of my first experience when I first started trying for a baby shortly after my husband and I were married. And we tried for four cycles. And I think I conceived in the fourth one. But I remember after a decade of charting, it was the weirdest thing, the weirdest experience ever after working so hard to avoid pregnancy on those days, to have sex on those days. It was just a very strange experience.

Mary: Yeah, I could imagine, especially in your case. I think that’s just really what I want to share with the listeners right now. That’s to me the most inspiring thing about this method, about understanding and using the fertility awareness method and being able to teach it and share it, not just with other women in your community. Teach it to the young women that are learning to cycle.

Because we go from being like, we can get pregnant any day, because that’s what we were told in sex ed. We just were like, you need to use protection always, and you need to be on birth control always because you can get pregnant at any time. And it’s like, how much more empowering would it be for young women especially, but for everybody, to feel like they can understand their cycle and they can actually say, you know what, I know this is when I ovulated, or this is where I’m at in my cycle, and be practicing safe sex or whatever they need for their relationship at that time.

This just feels like such vital knowledge. I wish that every woman, every person that menstruates could know. I’m excited, but hope to share it with more of those young ones someday.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Oh yeah. I’m with you. It changes the way you look at things. And it just gives you more information instead of dealing with this hypothetical thing that you have to be afraid of, this kind of monster in the closet, like imminent pregnancy waiting at every corner. You can just understand what’s going on in your body and you don’t have to be afraid of it anymore.

I know that was my experience thinking back. It’s interesting. It’s just been so long, but thinking back to when I first learned the method, that’s what it really was. Instead of being afraid of this hypothetical, scary thing, all of a sudden I understood what was going on and I didn’t have to be scared of it anymore. And the fear was gone then. Because either way, if you’re having sex, then you need to be aware of the chance of pregnancy. But it took the fear out of it because it allowed me to understand. It’s not a mystery. What do you have to be afraid of if you know when you’re fertile in your cycle versus when you’re not?

Mary: It’s one of the most empowering things and choices I think I’ve ever done for my personal life, my body. And it takes even with all of the past traumas and things that we were told to us, it really shifts that completely. Because if we’re tracking, we can assertively say, this is actually how it is, whether that’s to a doctor or anybody. And that’s the most powerful thing I think that we have, the ability to understand and to know our bodies, because they are our bodies.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Yeah, no, definitely. I’m so there with you. And it’s so interesting because at first it feels so daunting and then you jump in and you’ve got to go through the bit of a learning curve to understand everything. And then once you’re on the other side of that and you’ve been charting, even just for a few cycles, I think that’s when people get really excited. Because once you get over that learning curve and you see what it really is, there’s always going to be questions, there’s always going to be like, okay, what do you think of this chart? Okay, this temperature was kind of weird. But beyond those types of nuances, the overall concept is pretty straightforward.

I think that’s when people start to get mad. It’s like, well, this is it. This is what this whole big thing was about. This is pretty straightforward. Why aren’t we teaching our girls? And so we’ll see. I’m always excited to see what comes out of this. I’ve been going on about this stuff for almost 10 years now, officially on air.

I feel like there’s already been a big change in the industry from when I started learning, before podcasts were a thing, because I’m that old. And then from when I started the podcast to now, a lot has changed. And although we still have a long way to go and fertility awareness is still kind of fringe, for the younger women who are in their early 20s, I don’t think you understand how little information was available. People used to have to go to the library and hope they found a book about it. That’s where we used to be at. And now there’s multiple, who knows how many podcasts there are now in fertility. For the record, when I started this podcast, there were like two fertility podcasts. We have come a long way, even though we still have a long way to go.

Mary: Absolutely. And it’s really incredible to reflect on that and to feel that hope for the future generations and the generations that are learning about it now. I remember the only experience I got from my mom was, here’s the pads and here’s the book. We looked at a book with anatomy in it and then I remember having one sex ed class when I was in sixth grade. And that was pretty much it. And then any other information I got from friends, or friends’ moms, or the woman that ran the clinic in the town I grew up in.

It’s just such an interesting thing to reflect on how far it’s come. And that’s owed to all of these women and people that are making it happen. And you’re one of them. So goes to you, Lisa. You’re doing it, we’re doing it.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Thank you.

Mary: I notice that the second half of my cycle, when I am putting my body under too much stress, physical, emotional stress, either around the time I’m ovulating or after I ovulate, then the second half of my cycle always emotionally feels way harder. We don’t have to go too much into hormone stuff unless you want to go there. I know that we’re trying to wrap up, but just to say that I do know that a lot of women suffer from low progesterone. This is a known thing. And I think that my birth control use early on definitely hindered that. Progesterone is the key player.

Just thinking about those pieces, curious to hear what your thoughts are there. And I am in a place where I’m always trying to plan my life more around my cycle, which is something that has really shifted in the last few years. But sometimes I don’t have a choice and sometimes I’ve got to work my butt off to make money around that time. But I just noticed how much more it impacts me and how much more the need for rest and for self-care is needed in that second half of the cycle.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: I mean, it’s a big topic and we could spend a whole podcast on it. I think the first thing I would say in response is that when you’re charting, it really brings you into what’s happening in your body. And the first thing we have to do is get rid of the idea that the cycles are going to be perfect. We kind of have to allow for fluctuations and recognize that partly because of what you said. You said, I’m working, I have to make money. Sometimes I have to work. And even if I know that I need to take a rest, maybe I can’t always do that. I think we ought to take that into consideration also. And it doesn’t mean we normalize things that are abnormal. It just means that we recognize there’s going to be fluctuations.

The initial question was how stress impacts the menstrual cycle. Stress impacts the menstrual cycle in different ways, depending on the type of stress and the duration, and where you are in the cycle. If you are in the pre-ovulatory phase and you experience kind of an acute stressor, that could be something like a busy day or traffic or a death in the family or something that is more timely where it’s not all the time, but it’s something that’s coming up.

The most common way that stress affects the cycle if you experience it prior to ovulation is a delayed ovulation or changes otherwise in that respect. Many people, if they’re tracking, may have noticed that if they experience a stressful event before ovulation, they might see what looks like their body approaching ovulation. Some mucus shows up and then maybe they don’t end up ovulating and then mucus shows up again and they ovulate later in the cycle and it results in a longer cycle. That would be an example of how stress can typically affect your cycle if you experience it before ovulation.

And when you experience stress in the second half of the cycle, that shows up a little differently. You had mentioned progesterone and low progesterone and that’s a pretty big topic. I feel like everyone who starts charting their cycle, as soon as you get a sense of what your luteal phase looks like and how that can vary, I just think it’s very, very common.

The way that stress can impact the cycle in the second half, after you’ve ovulated, the most common way that shows up is it does affect progesterone. It can be a shortening of the luteal phase and it can also be an increase in some of those PMS symptoms. For anyone who isn’t aware of it, PMS symptoms are a direct relation to progesterone. Women who have moderate to severe PMS tend to have that kind of sharper drop in progesterone prior to their period, which is not supposed to happen. It’s supposed to be more of a gradual drop. Those signs in and of themselves, when you have those moderate to severe PMS symptoms, are a sign that the progesterone isn’t exactly optimal.

How do you deal with it? I know we talked a lot in class about what I call the foundational factors. And a lot of the things that you’ve already been doing go a long way to improve that. Whether that is making sure you’re getting enough sleep or making sure that you’re not skipping breakfast and getting enough to eat, especially for your activity level, things like that.

And there are other things you can do. The concept of hacking your cycle has gotten really popular. I think it’s great, but I feel like for me, because I’ve been in this field for two decades, it’s not this novel idea. I kind of think, well, of course you should be doing that. You can think about what that could look like for you in terms of scheduling things.

One way I really liked, if I think back to the episode I recorded with Elisa Beatty, she was talking about cycle syncing from the concept of the infradian rhythm versus the circadian rhythm. From that perspective, from your business standpoint, the entrepreneurial standpoint, are you able to kind of look at your month? And instead of planning what you’re going to do on a weekly basis, knowing a bit about your cycle and tracking it and everything, how does that feel? Have you done any of that and thought about when you’re planning your month?

You can’t always predict. We talked a little bit about that. But you can have a general sense of what’s happening and maybe try to, for example, if you tend to have more energy prior to ovulation, preload your month where you’re kind of scheduling those things towards the beginning of that cycle and fewer things at the end. Maybe just share with me what you have done so far to try to kind of work things around your cycle.

Mary: Yeah, definitely. Currently, the process I’ve been working with is looking at my calendar and knowing at least the week that I’m going to menstruate. My schedules are pretty regular, usually just between a day or two if they do shift. I try to block off that week as far as having a lighter work week. Maybe that means I’m going to work with one client a day and then do other things for my business instead of seeing three or four clients a day and making medicine and doing computer work and sending emails.

I try to lighten the load. And I think where it gets really tricky, and this is just all about my own boundaries, is needing to just say no to things. But that’s where it’s like, here I am, I’m a working woman, I’m supporting part of our family, and sometimes things just shift and then I’m like, oh well, I have to do this thing now instead of maybe I was going to do it last week.

Just hearing you share and thinking about it, I think it’s helpful to reaffirm and bring me back to this place of, how can I continually be striving to try to not put my body under a lot of stress all of the time but especially during those times? And giving myself more rest, more nourishing foods, sometimes adding in an extra herbal tea, really mineral-rich herbal tea or something like that so that I can just feel more supported.

Those are kind of the things that I’ve done and I’ve been feeling like I’ve been in a pretty good balance. But every now and then things will shift and then I’m like, okay, I’m just noticing how much more my emotions seem to be popping up in relation to PMS, especially tension and frustration and the need to just let it out. I try to do my best to move my body and receive care and nourishment from myself and others.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, I know we talked about a lot of different strategies for boosting progesterone and different things in class. I think as women, we often seem to need permission to make certain changes. There’s a whole conversation we could have around thinking about boundaries and setting up your scheduling for your business and things like that. I think the key takeaway is you don’t have to do your business the way that other people do it or even the way you thought you needed to do it.

A lot of people do different things like theming days. I think you can theme weeks, and I think you’re already making strides in that direction. And I’m not sure if you have an assistant who helps to book calls, that can be really helpful because then you can just set those boundaries up and have someone else work that for you. But ultimately, it’s never going to be perfect. Perfect isn’t the goal.

But I think it’s just starting, now that you’re tracking, you can really identify when in your cycle you feel good. In the first half of your cycle, for example, and that could just be the starting point. And then once you kind of have that and you see how that feels, you can work from there. And then also other related activities. I’ve had so many conversations with women who work out a lot and it’s like no one told them they don’t have to work out on their period and stuff like that.

I think you’re probably past some of that stuff, but it’s also helpful to think about your other activities. And think about, because I know as a business person, you’re often thinking about how am I going to organize my weeks? But I think even just shifting to the month and giving yourself permission to not take calls on Fridays. I don’t know what you need to do, but I’m pretty sure that you can come up with some great ideas for shifting that.

And then in the meantime, make sure that to the best of your ability, you’re focusing on those foundational factors. If I take a peek at your cycle, I’m seeing some temperature fluctuations post-ovulatory. I think if we were to get into the weeds a little bit more about what you’re doing on those days, how much you’re working out, what your diet is like, and if you have busy days at work, does that affect your ability to eat three meals a day, I’m sure we could get into the weeds on some of those things. And it really comes down to putting systems in place. Again, perfect isn’t the goal. But even if we do the 80-20 rule, the majority of the time we have it working out for us. Let me know how that feels.

Mary: No, that feels great. And even just looking at this cycle that I’m still in now, I’ve noticed those temperature fluctuations. And I think the past cycles I’ve been tracking, I haven’t noticed as much post-ovulatory fluctuation. It’s interesting and it’s funny. I’m asking this question because this is what’s happening now. I’m getting ready to bleed and I’m having a harder second half of the cycle. But I also know what I did to my body stress-wise and how my body was asking for more rest.

It’s just really good to think about. And I think I am so good about getting adequate sleep almost every night and eating so well and taking my supplements and my herbs and all the things and moving my body slowly and not pushing it. But it’s the stress. And being a business owner, the stress is always going to be there.

I also just want to lastly say that it’s been a really good thing for it to come up this cycle for me because these last few cycles before that, I’ve actually been feeling really good and not having a lot of PMS stuff and other symptoms come up. It’s just a reminder. These are reminders for us to tune in and to set ourselves up for what we know, which is what our body needs.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, I mean, the great thing about using your cycle as a vital sign is that you go from your body having a one-way conversation with you that you’re not listening to, to you being able to participate. When you’re tracking what’s happening, and like you said, with your feeling that it kind of arrives at some of those PMS symptoms and seeing some of the temperature fluctuations. For the listeners, you can’t see the chart, but basically, we’re seeing the post-ovulatory temperatures kind of drop a little bit. And it’s a conversation. And now you’re able to see what’s going on and respond.

And what happens throughout this process of charting, six months from now, think about how much more data you’ll have, a year from now. You’re able to figure out what really works for your body, for you specifically. And I think that’s one of my favorite things about charting, because it’s not just this general tool, and everyone can’t just do the same things and get the same results. We really figure out what we need, what works for us based on what’s actually happening in our body.

I think this is a good reminder for you to sort it out. And from the business standpoint, without going into the weeds, there’s a conversation around organizing things differently. And if you’re really stressed out, sometimes we need to up that conversation to, do I need to be doing this at all? Is there someone else that could be helping me with this? What am I tolerating in my business and why? Should I be delegating this better?

Mary: Totally. I’m always thinking about those things, maybe too much, but it’s good because it’s getting it closer to what is present for me now and what my needs are. And I feel really grateful to be doing that. Thank you.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: You’re welcome. As we start wrapping up, a couple of questions I always like to ask. For someone who’s listening, who’s on birth control, thinking about coming off or thinking about starting to chart for birth control purposes and a little nervous, what, if anything, would you want them to know?

Mary: I think my best advice is just to be open. Have an open mind and have an open process around the different possibilities for how you can connect with your body and that there’s so many resources out there, like we were talking about. There’s podcasts now, so many podcasts, Lisa’s podcast, but also some of the other amazing podcasts, a lot of great books. And just as somebody is feeling curious, they’re interested, just take the time that they need to explore, but lean on those amazing resources. And they might be pleasantly surprised with how it shifts their own process and their own healing.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: And if someone’s thinking about jumping into the group program, the Fertility Awareness Mastery Live, what would you want them to know about it?

Mary: I think it’s an amazing opportunity. And I think what it can give a person initially is community, which is huge when you’re going through big transitions, especially about learning about your cycle, learning about your body, learning about menstruation, learning about hormones, all the things. That gives you that community and then having Lisa and some other awesome people that you might get to chat with, including those in your class. And you learn a lot from each other.

It’s really amazing that Lisa includes a bunch of really great resources, including a copy of her book and a copy of the Justisse method, the user’s guide. All those things I found and all of the handouts and all of the recordings and the videos. I just think it’s a wealth of resources. And it’s really, if somebody was brand new getting off birth control, wanting to dive in, I think it’s an amazing resource out there. And I’m really, really grateful that I took the plunge. And definitely thinking about doing the practitioner training in the future maybe.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Oh, that’s amazing. Thank you for all of your kind words. And also, as we go, maybe share a little bit about what you do, your clinical herbalist practice. Did I say the correct title?

Mary: Thank you. Yeah, so for everybody to have a little context. I’m in Northern California. I live close to Tahoe and I run a small home-based practice called Sierra Roots Wellness and practice as a clinical herbalist. I work with folks one-on-one to support their healing goals and needs primarily with herbal medicines, foods, and sometimes some essential whole-foods-based supplements and nutrients and lifestyle support.

And then I also make too many herbal medicines. I’m always trying to be like, how can I make less? But I love that, that’s my creative side. As far as things that I offer that are supportive for women, I make a really beautiful fertility tea and I do make a pelvic steam. I make a beautiful breast oil and a wealth of other things for the whole family. You can check my website, sierrarootswellness.com. But what I do is always bringing me closer to my own self and process and supporting myself as well as my community. Thanks for connecting back to that. It’s part of the journey.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Yes, definitely. Well, for anyone listening, we’ll make sure to link your website so that they can check it out. Mary, thank you so much for being here today. It was so nice to connect with you and thank you for sharing your story. I feel like it’s going to be really inspiring for the listeners.

Mary: Thanks so much, Lisa. It’s great to be here today. Look forward to more conversations in the future.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it with a friend. You’ll find the show notes page for today’s episode over at fertilityfriday.com/465.

I hope that you enjoyed today’s episode with Mary. I feel like she gave such great insights and she’s had a lot of time to reflect on what worked for her and what didn’t. And I do feel that it’s important to get a balanced perspective, especially when it comes to endometriosis. It’s such a complicated chronic condition and there’s not just one right answer for everybody.

When you speak to women who’ve gone different routes, whether it’s surgery, whether it’s non-surgical, it’s always a mix of ups and downs. It’s very rare, at least in my experience, to hear someone say, “Oh, I did this one thing and it all worked out perfectly, and I never had to do anything again,” regardless of what route that you take. There are always ups and downs and certainly a learning curve. And there’s a lot of challenges along the way, whether it’s the challenge of even getting a diagnosis, getting your medical professionals to take you seriously, or handling the symptoms when you’re not wanting to go the surgical route to get a diagnosis.

A lot of women wait or choose not to get the laparoscopic procedure because they don’t want a surgery. And then in that situation, they may not know for sure, they may not have that 100 percent confident diagnosis that what they’re really dealing with is endo. And everybody who is dealing with this condition deals with it in a bit of a different way depending on what feels best for them.

The most important thing for women in this situation is we need support. We need support. We need people around us who take our problems seriously. Often people who have been through the same thing, in different environments, that can be extremely helpful. If I think back to the episode that I recorded with Jenna, who shared her experience with endo, an atypical endo presentation, and her struggles at finding a skilled surgeon who could really support her. In her experience, it really was when she joined a group of women, I think it was on Facebook, with endo. And that’s where she actually found her community and started to get solid referrals for experienced physicians, experienced surgeons where she could really get that concrete diagnosis and proper care.

I believe that as women, we need people around us who either have been there or who specialize in the issue that we are having. We need to be assertive. We need to be clear on what we need. If we’re not getting the care we need from our practitioners, we need to feel empowered to speak up and request the care that we need. And we just do better when we’re supported. End of story.