How Marathon Training Affects Your Cycle (Episode 481)

Full Transcript: Episode 481

Lisa: Today I’m sharing a brand new episode in my FAMM practitioner series. I’m sharing a fascinating conversation with Haley, one of the graduates from the FAMM program. And Haley shares some really fascinating insights that she had with her own cycles tracking your cycles as a part of the FAMM program. And she was able to track over the course of about a year and a half to two years during our time together. She was able to track her cycle during a very stressful time and she shares the insights that she learned from kind of tracking through this time, seeing how it affected her cycle and what it took to get it back and get it back on track.

And it’s really, I find it of course to be a fascinating conversation because it really strikes at the heart of the FAMM program, which is to really understand that connection between your body and your health. And interestingly, the goal from my perspective isn’t to strive to have this perfect cycle all the time. Although obviously it’s desirable and wanted for us to have a cycle that falls into optimal parameters. But my true goal, what I try to do with clients and my practitioners, is to empower women to really understand that connection so that they can use it as a tool. And throughout your life, then it’s something that you can always look back on.

And I’ve said this many times on the podcast, but when you have a really good understanding of your cycle and what’s optimal and you see what it takes to get your cycle into that optimal range—and I didn’t say your cycle being perfect or exactly the same every time—but just for it to be within that normal range, to be healthy, to have good hormones, to have a strong luteal phase, to have limited, very little PMS symptoms, to have a period that falls within normal range, little to no pain and things like that. So what happens is, as you track and you live your life, you’re going to have stressful situations. You’re going to have times when things aren’t going exactly perfectly and you’re going to see how your cycle responds.

And when you get to that point that you can start to add certain things in or respond, or when you see that your cycle is getting a little off track you can make adjustments. When you get to that point, that from my perspective is true body literacy, and that is the goal that I have for my clients and in this program. Not to just have this perfect cycle all the time, and although it’s desirable, yes, to have optimal parameters, but to really get to the point where you are actively engaging, using your menstrual cycle as a vital sign and having that feedback tool on a regular basis to help keep you in check and keep your hormones on track.

So I’m going to stop with the preamble. I’ll share a little bit about Haley and then we’ll get into today’s episode. Haley is a nutritionist and certified FAMM practitioner specializing in helping women find their answers to sub-fertility. She’s on a mission to serve women who have never been taught how their fertility works or given agency on their journey to conception. She does so by bringing a step-by-step process to helping women understand their menstrual cycle and restore their fertility at the root cause level and conceive naturally. Without further ado, let’s go ahead and jump into today’s call with Haley.

I’m excited to be here once again with Haley Smith. Haley is a graduate of the FAMM program. And what inspired this interview today was two years of just really interesting conversations. I feel like last year in the alumni, you had a lot of breakthroughs. The charting was a central part of that for you. And so I feel like today is going to be a really interesting kind of dive into your personal experience and how it relates to your professional work in this area and all that. So I’m really excited to get into this with you. So welcome back to the show.

Haley: Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. It’s always so good.

Lisa: Yeah. And it’s been a minute since we’ve talked. So this is also fun. Just selfishly that we get to talk.

Haley: I agree.

Lisa: Well, so, I mean, I’ll definitely link back to our first episode together as part of the FAMM series a couple of years ago. So listeners can kind of go back there to learn a bit more about you, but maybe you can just share with us a little bit about your professional background. And before we started recording, you kind of shared a bit about your history and trajectory, which I think is really foundational and also really important. So I’ll let you kind of take it away and kind of give us some insights.

Haley: Yeah, of course. So I’m originally from Michigan and I did my undergraduate work there in exercise science. So that was my background. I was inspired—that was growing up, playing soccer my entire life and running cross country. After my undergraduate work, I moved out west to get my graduate work in nutrition. And then within the two-year graduate program, I really specialized in women’s health. I started off on a wider spectrum, helping women anywhere from menarche to menopause, but then really have narrowed in on fertility.

It was within that timeframe that I was first introduced to the fertility awareness method. It was like a weekend intensive workshop at the school I was going to. And I was like most women whenever they find out this information, my jaw was on the floor and I was like, what do you mean I can’t get pregnant every day of the cycle? And from there I was hooked. And after I graduated in 2018, I found your work and was a part of the first FAMM cohort, which was in 2021. Yep, so went through that program, spent a couple of years with you, and today I am primarily—my practice is rooted in nutrition and the fertility awareness method, helping women on a conception journey.

Lisa: Well, and so we’ll get into kind of what prompted a lot of our conversations in the alumni program last year. But it’s interesting, as I was sharing with you in our pre-chat, I haven’t said this on the podcast, but may as well. So I am working on my next book project, which I’m really excited about. And I’m finally coming towards the end of the writing process, which with a baby in the middle has taken a lot longer than I was thinking.

Interestingly, as we’re recording this episode, I am in the middle of writing the chapter on HA. And so in this book, there’s going to be a whole chapter on HA. Whereas in The Fifth Vital Sign, there was a couple of important helpful sections in chapters 6 and 16. And so I was writing this section on exercise yesterday, literally yesterday.

And what was interesting, so part of your story was soccer, which is obviously my kids are in soccer also. And you said running cross country. You’re running cross country, and my basketball coach forced us to literally force us to run cross to make us better basketball players. So and I didn’t love it. Like for me, like running cross country was something I was forced to do as opposed to something I wanted to do.

But anyways, what this made me think of—and I don’t have the stat in front of me—I was looking at a study and it was looking at the rates of primary and secondary amenorrhea in women. Primary amenorrhea is when you don’t get your first period or when that’s delayed. And then secondary amenorrhea is when you’ve already had your period and then it goes away.

So what was interesting and what came up when you shared, just rattled off your history, was that I believe, if I remember correctly, in that particular study, soccer was one of the top three sports associated with the highest rates of primary amenorrhea. And it was soccer and gymnastics, and then there was another one that I would have to—maybe it’ll come to me. But anyways, I just thought that was so interesting because you wouldn’t think—until I read that, I didn’t think, I wouldn’t have thought soccer. But then running is in its own category and running is associated with a very high rate of secondary amenorrhea.

Haley: I mean, I completely believe it. There’s—I heard something along the way of how many miles you run in a soccer game, and it’s more than you think. Yeah, I think it’s like eight miles maybe. I mean, depending on the position, of course, but me personally, I was a midfielder. So for those who know soccer, you literally run from one end of the field to the other for 90 minutes.

And for me personally, soccer was my first love. It was my first priority. So cross country was in addition to that. So during the fall seasons of high school, I was doing both. I was running cross country. I remember I was like, cross the finish line of a race and get in the car and drive and I’m playing 90 minutes soccer game. And I was a midfielder because I was good at running. So, you know, my coaches loved that, they loved the endurance I had. So they utilized it and I was insane. Absolutely insane.

Lisa: And when did you get your first period?

Haley: I got my very first period in eighth grade.

Lisa: So I’m not sure. That sounds average. Yeah, it was probably—I always try to do a plus five, like that’s 12.

Haley: Oh, there you go. Yeah, something like that around 12-ish. So that’s not a problem at all. Were your cycles regular? Sorry, we’re doing this, but I’m curious now.

Lisa: No, no problem.

Haley: So yeah, I started, got my first period in eighth grade. As far as I know, they were regular. I didn’t track it. I remember having a really painful very first period. I remember them being really heavy. I didn’t start doing the dual cross country and soccer until high school. So it was after my first period. But like I shared with you before we started recording, it was my sophomore year of high school that I had secondary amenorrhea for an entire cross-country season. As soon as cross country stopped, it was like a month later I got my period again. So that was my first experience of amenorrhea that was induced by exercise.

Lisa: That’s interesting, yeah. I mean, those questions that—so that plays into when you were starting soccer. So I don’t remember how old you are, but so I’m 40 now. And I feel like—am I crazy? Is this just my imagination? I feel like when I was growing up, kids started sports later because as a parent right now, I mean, the amount of sports you can put your five-year-old in is completely insane. I mean, there’s like basketball camps and soccer. I remember I put my son, my eldest son, in like basketball camp because I’m like, I played basketball somewhere. And he hated it. Oh no. So I put him, but like, I remember going there with five-year-olds and thinking like some of them were really good. And I’m like, how? Like, how?

Anyways, so my point is that I feel like because when I’m asking you and you had your first period, like this didn’t become an issue for you until high school because that’s when you had the soccer plus the cross country, which I mean, now it’s like, well, wow, of course that makes perfect sense. But anyways, it was just a thought of mine because I feel like a lot of younger women are already fully in soccer by the time they’re even 10 or 11 playing at a competitive level. And no one would really—we’re just not versed in this conversation to even start to think about what kind of nutritional support we would have to give somebody at that level, because they’re just a kid, right? Like, you’re not really thinking about that.

Haley: It’s a good question. And I don’t know exactly how old I was when I started playing. I mean, I started playing very, very young. I don’t know if I was as young as five, but I was definitely playing by the time I was in elementary school. So I don’t think that sophomore year of high school, I don’t think it was an isolated incident. Like I do think there was the lead up to it. Because I was playing competitively by the time I was in middle school for sure. So similar to my experience this past year, I think that sophomore year, it put me over the edge. And I went into an amenorrheic state.

But yeah, I mean, you’re right, it’s insane. Like you see any social media, it’s insane and you see kids at such a young age, like parents are showing off them starting to lift and how much muscle they have, like it’s crazy.

Lisa: Well, and for the record, right? Like this is not a like anti-sport podcast. So I have plenty of girls and women do sports and don’t lose their periods. But I think that the point of this conversation today is to kind of allude to how it can affect you. And to ask some of those questions of at what point could it become problematic? And what should we be looking at here? And like even for anyone who’s listening who might have like a daughter or a niece or those kind of things, it’s not without consequence.

So for example, you lost your period, like you said in high school for that period of time when you added in the extra exercise, which is so interesting. For women who lose their period for long stretches of time, I mean, that’s the years when you’re building your bone mass. And so the female athlete triad is the word for this combination of not eating enough, exercising a whole lot, and then getting osteoporosis. Like literally, they’ve adjusted the definition to kind of like low bone density. But I mean, these are the implications. So it’s not without consequence for us to be considering these. Like who wants osteoporosis? Like, not exactly.

Haley: And I think, you know, what’s worth mentioning that this absolutely, like you said, we’re not anti-exercise here, but it’s also being coupled with this culture and society that praises under-eating and being really, really thin. So this whole other component of this, like, sure, do the sports, do the exercise, but you have to be eating accordingly. So I think that’s where a lot of danger comes into play of like we’re praising over-exercise and we’re praising under-eating and those two are such a mismatch for fertility, among other things. But for the purpose of this conversation, speaking about fertility, like it’s such a dangerous combination.

Lisa: Yeah, and even just for general health. Like I mean, the fertility to me is secondary to like osteoporosis at the age of 25. Like I just feel like this is—and this is a thing that I’m sure that there’s a lot of women out there that are facing whether they know it or not.

Haley: Exactly.

Lisa: So one of the pieces—so I feel like this gives us such an interesting background because the reason that we’re even talking about your kind of history, I think I would imagine it’s because you did some personal reflection on this. So share with us then kind of the impetus here. So from my perspective, what I remember is that we were in the midst of our kind of alumni year where we’re having our monthly calls and everything. And you had a personal situation that led you to, you know, run a marathon. And there was no one in the room that was like, don’t run a marathon. Like we’re all like, sweet. Like this sounds like, I mean, I understand from the perspective of like, right? Like it’s, you know, so maybe I’ll let you jump into that. But that was kind of the impetus because that led to some changes in your cycle that we’re going to talk about.

Haley: Yeah, so this past year, so 2022, I went through a very hard breakup that was a catalyst to the motivation to run a half marathon. As we know now, I have a history of running. I’m a former athlete. It’s something that I’ve always wanted to do. And I was also coming out of a winter season in the Pacific Northwest where it was very dark, very depressing. So couple that with this hard breakup, I just needed something to lift my spirits. And I had a friend who was running a half marathon so I was like, oh, let’s do this together. So I started training.

And it was the first time I’ve run like that in a really, really long time. And at that point I was, you know, in the FAMM program. I was very into tracking my cycle in this way that I’m not only knowing when I’m fertile versus infertile, also knowing where the gaps in my hormones are and using it as a means for prognosis for myself and clients.

So at that point, I was having a regular 28 to 30 day cycle, was my norm. And about a month or two into starting to train for this half marathon, I started bleeding after 21 days. And that was like, I was like, what? Like what just happened? And from that point on, so from about February to March of 2022 to October to November of 2022, I did not have an ovulatory cycle.

So I went nearly a year without ovulating, and I chalk it up to, yes, the over-exercise. The half marathon that I ran was in June. So I knew that I wasn’t ovulating, but I was committed to running this race. So I was just pushing through. And then once I ran the half marathon, I did stop running and went into recovery mode, but I still didn’t have the ovulatory cycle until that fall.

So yes, it was the over-exercise, but like I was telling you before, it was a time in my life where what we call the foundational factors of fertility all went out the window. I was completely stressed by this breakup, which affected my sleep. I usually historically was a very good sleeper, when I was having a lot of sleepless nights. And I was also at a time in my life where I wasn’t eating as much as I should have been.

So all that to say, I think my history, which I think there’s more components to the history that led up to this, but I think that half marathon in this time in my life put me over the edge. And I went an entire year without ovulating. And I think it’s important to note that I still bled. I bled the entire year, but they were breakthrough bleeds. They were not periods. And the only way I would know that is if I was tracking my cycle because I was tracking my basal body temperature. I never had a temp rise. So I was still bleeding. I was still having those breakthrough bleeds, but they were not periods because I was not ovulating that entire time. So that’s what inspired why we’re here today.

Lisa: Yeah, that’s so interesting. And I was saying to you earlier that I don’t think there’s any accidents. Before I jumped on the call with you, I had a call with the current FAMM ladies, and I did a separate training for anovulatory bleeding.

Haley: Oh my gosh.

Lisa: I know, right? It’s just like everything’s just aligning today. And so I think there’s so many interesting pieces to your story, because I can imagine the listener who’s like, well, how do you know you weren’t ovulating? Like how do you know? And so you explained you were tracking your temperature, you were tracking your mucus and stuff like that. And so you were not seeing a temperature rise and you were probably not seeing the mucus signs line up a whole lot I would imagine. So that’s how you know, because when you’re tracking these signs, if you are ovulating, it’s clear and obvious. Even if the ovulation isn’t perfect, even if the progesterone isn’t perfect, there will still be signs that are very clear and obvious to be able to identify in the cycle.

Haley: Exactly.

Lisa: And then in terms of, I think one thing that’s actually potentially positive in the midst of all of this is that you were having the bleeding. That means that you were having follicular development. That means that you were actually like not fully, fully there in terms of like complete ovulatory suppression. It means that there was still—so for anyone who doesn’t know what that just means that I just said, when you are having a normal cycle, you would have your follicular development. So before ovulation, the follicles are growing. And as they’re growing, they’re making estrogen. And that estrogen is triggering the endometrial lining to develop. And then once you ovulate, the lining matures, and then you have your period.

So at least in your case, Haley, I feel like the positive there is that there was follicular development, because true full-blown HA means that there’s not really—like it’s fully suppressed and there’s not only is there no ovulation, but there’s nothing else going on. Like there’s no mucus really to speak of, and there’s certainly no bleeding.

So I think that’s interesting and it also gives us this really tangible example of what I always refer to as the spectrum. Yes, the HA spectrum. So we’ve got like on the one side, you totally lost your period. It’s gone. There’s no mucus, there’s no bleeding. There’s nothing, just nothing for a long, long time until you sort that out. And then on the other end, there’s like a lot of us. I mean, I’m human, so I’ll throw myself in there. Although I don’t have a personal history of disordered eating patterns.

But on the other side of this HA spectrum is the woman who is really, really focused on exercise, on her diet, she might have some orthorexic tendencies. Orthorexia is a word that refers to being obsessed with health and wanting your diet to be perfect and to be really healthy, and that can lead to unintentional under-eating and things like that. So I feel like on those—but she’s still getting her period, right? But maybe her signs aren’t ideal. Anyways, so that’s just to give the listeners a little bit of a background.

I remember, Haley, when we had a conversation, I think it was probably around the time that you were saying in your story where you had that short, like the bleed at 21 days, where you had this really short luteal phase. And I think that we, like in the conversation, it was kind of like, well, you can see how the training is affecting your body. So you, the difference, I think, in this scenario is that you knew in real time exactly what was happening, what was going on. So maybe share with us a little bit about that.

Haley: Yeah, I love that. And like I’ve heard you say before too, it was a conscious decision and I chose to run this half marathon knowing that I’m nowhere near a time in my life where I’m trying to conceive. So it was a conscious choice. I was also really curious how it would affect my cycles. So that’s just the beautiful thing about charting is you’re seeing how it’s affecting you in real time.

I didn’t know that it would affect me that intensely. And it was this moment like, you know, I wake up and I take my temperature and I see it hit the 96s. And I was like, oh my gosh, like I haven’t had that since for years and years. So I was watching it in real time plummet my cycles. And, you know, I got to this point, like I said, I was committed to the race and I chose to do it, but eventually I’m just like, why am I doing this to my body?

Like, you know, leading up to this, I was someone who always had the very limited cervical mucus. So at this time, there was absolutely nothing. Like before the half marathon, maybe I would have like one good day of peak mucus, but once I started training, there was nothing.

And I think it’s really interesting because like you were sharing about the orthorexia and the all the other factors like that was me too. There was cross country. There was soccer. And I think it’s worth mentioning—so at the end of high school, I started the pill. So there’s that, you know, I’m sure your listeners know by now the effects of the pill and all the nutrient depletions that it can have on us.

And then I went on to play college soccer. And it was my sophomore year of college that I started crazy disordered eating patterns. I don’t call it an eating disorder, but you know, it’s probably on the spectrum of anorexia. And the only reason I probably didn’t go that far is because I was playing soccer and I knew enough that I had to eat to be able to play soccer. There’s probably an argument of how well I was playing because of how little I was eating, but there was that.

So at that time I was on the pill, so I wasn’t cycling, but even if I wasn’t on the pill, I have no doubt that I would have been in the amenorrheic state. So I was on the pill, I was not eating, I was playing college soccer. And then when I came off the pill in 2014, at the end of college, I started transitioning to moving out west to begin nutrition school, or my graduate work in nutrition.

And at that time, after I got off the pill, I had all these crazy symptoms blow up. I was so bloated. My face exploded with acne. So I was in this crazy post-pill symptom state. And then I started this graduate work in nutrition where we started to try all these therapeutic diets, but it included things like fasting. And I was diagnosed with SIBO. So I was trying all these SIBO protocols that included fasting and whatnot.

So I think that all plays into where I was this past year of being so depleted. My nutrient stores, I think they were at their bare minimum. So I was still cycling. I was having a 28, 30 day cycle before I started training, but I always had very limited cervical mucus. Once I kind of shifted my diet, started eating more protein, starting more meat, I did see my temperatures rise, but never had good cervical mucus. And then whenever this past year when everything in my life kind of blew up, it just completely put me over the edge and I went an entire year without ovulating. So there’s a lot that I think led to why this past year was what it was for me.

Lisa: Yeah, there’s just so much to unpack there. And I think one of the things too, like especially for practitioners, is that can be difficult. And this is one of the things that we talked about in class a lot is supporting your clients to achieve their goals. I mean, my role in that scenario was not to like, come to your house and be like, don’t run the marathon. That’s not my role. And I wasn’t emotionally attached to your decision to run a marathon, because I also understand that—so tell me if this resonates with you.

I mean, one of the interesting pieces, given that I’m like in the midst of this whole process of writing about HA, but one of the interesting threads in this HA kind of universe is that desire to control things. And this is something I’ve heard from a lot of my clients with HA, that this is about their—like, you can’t control the world, you can’t control your boyfriend, right? You can’t control all these other things. But it’s interesting that in your kind of most stressful moment within the most recent year or two, you gravitated to the thing that you could control, right, the running.

So I think that that’s just an interesting piece of it. And I’m sure that any of the listeners who’ve kind of struggled with this, like, that’s something you can control. It’s something you do. It’s something you can decide how much you’re going to do. You can control your schedule, right? So that’s one thing.

The other thing I just want to point out is that we were still like, you were still part of the program during this whole process and during this whole time. And this is not something that happened and you just weren’t trying. Like I remember we had many conversations. Like you, if I—correct me if I’m wrong—but you were making a point of trying to eat more and to add more. Like this all happened despite your efforts to like add in more protein on exercise days and all of these things. So maybe share a little bit about that.

Haley: Yeah, I’m so happy you brought up that control piece. And I just want to comment on it for a second because I think it is so crucial. Not even could I control the running, but it was my effort to control my body. Maybe not so much now, but like in my recent years of disordered eating, that is a pattern. And I think I’m definitely—I don’t specialize in eating disorders—but I think that’s a characteristic of anorexia. It’s you want to be in control. And whenever things are so out of control, you want to control your body. So you do that by eating less and exercising more.

And you know, I’ve been in therapy for many, many years, and I know my subconscious patterns, and that’s a whole other conversation. But I do have a history of breakups lead to me not eating as much as I should, because I need to get my body a certain size. Like it’s—there’s a lot there. So I think that control piece is really, really interesting and it’s a lot to unpack if you’re in this state of not eating enough and over-exercising.

I forgot your second question.

Lisa: Well, yeah, the second one was eating more.

Haley: Yeah. Yes, despite my efforts to eat more. Yeah, you’re exactly right. I, you know, I was in the program. I knew what was needed for optimal parameters. So knowing that I was starting this running, I did—I blew my grocery budget out of the water because I was like, I need to buy this meat. I need to buy this extra protein. And yeah, I don’t know what would have happened if I wasn’t doing that. Maybe I would have gone full-blown amenorrhea, but it didn’t move the needle. Despite the fancy supplements I was taking and the extra protein and food I was eating.

Lisa: I feel like that’s something that’s—and you’ve heard me say this at one point or another too—when it comes to supporting clients, whether it’s for conception purposes or whether it’s supporting clients with improving luteal phase length or progesterone production, where for clients who do exercise at a heavy level, even if it’s like a temporary, like in your case, it was a temporary thing. When you have someone who’s exercising at a really high level, regardless of whether they consider themselves an athlete—so I would say that your marathon prep was athlete level, right? And I feel like you would agree with that.

But I’ve worked with plenty of clients who are working out, you know, four to five times a week or running almost a similar amount to you for the marathon prep, but not prepping for a marathon. Don’t identify as an athlete, but still working out at this level. And so what I found is that for, I think most—I think I’m going to say most. So I could be wrong. This is based on my experience. But for most women who exercise at that level, to get the levels, the hormone level balance that you want to see in your menstrual cycle, it’s often harder or impossible to do it with just food. Like, there has to be eating more and lowering the exercise. Like, both of those things have to happen because the amount of food you would have had to eat to try to catch this would probably have been unreasonable for you.

Haley: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And like we were saying at the beginning of the conversation, you know, there’s two pieces of this, of the mental piece of we live in a society where under-eating is praised. And I don’t think most women understand how much a normal amount of food is to support your body or to even just maintain—it’s probably a lot more than you think it is.

Lisa: Well, not probably, because in your case, given that you were—because I remember we had a conversation and you were basically maxed in, at least I would say so. Like touching on exactly what you said, I would say you were probably maxed to what your brain would allow you to eat, but not actually literally maxed.

Haley: I’m so glad you said that. I listened to your recent FAMM research series podcast that was referencing the study that you shared with me during this time. And I think you said something like, you know, whenever you ask women, are you eating as much as you can? Like, of course they’re going to say yes. But it’s like 100% of the time they’re like, oh, there’s no way I could eat more. And I remember having that conversation with you and I was like, that was me. And like, of course I could have eaten more. But in my mind, I was eating like as much as I should have been—probably more than you ever have.

Lisa: I would like—probably more than you ever. And this is the interesting thing too, like for women that have a history of disordered eating patterns. So whether or not it fits into the definition of a DSM eating disorder, disordered eating patterns, I’ve had many clients who are at the point where they literally are telling me that they have never eaten this much and I’m still there like, yes, but it’s not enough.

Haley: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s what charting is good for. Like you’re in real-time information of is this enough food for you? If your temperatures are still low, if you’re not seeing cervical mucus, like that is real-time information. It is not enough food. And it’s not my opinion that it’s not enough.

Lisa: Right. It is right in front of you. That’s the interesting thing about charting, because it’s not my opinion. It’s like, do you have a period? No, so it’s not enough.

But there’s another piece that I want to get into, which is fascinating and consistent in the research and consistent in women’s experiences. And that is where you were aware, right? Like, I feel like this was the best case scenario, right? But like, I don’t want to—like the word that came to mind, I don’t want to offend you. The word that came to mind was like train wreck. It’s not a train wreck, though, but it’s like the best case scenario, right? I mean, I’m not too far off.

Haley: I’m not. So I don’t know why, but I tend to go for the hyperbole, right? It makes for good—makes for good radio.

Lisa: But it’s like the best case scenario, right? Of this scenario, of this situation. Because, A, you were fully aware, you made a conscious decision. It was temporary. You were eating as much as you could fit in your mouth, logically. Like, I remember those conversations, you fully did, but like, blow up your budget, you’re eating more meat than you ever had, right? Like, it’s all this stuff. And then when the marathon was over, you stopped.

So the interesting thing is for a lot of my clients who are in the throes of this at a different stage than you were, because this was just a thing that you did for like—there’s more to it than that, obviously. But it was a thing that you did for a period of time, and then you stopped. But your period did not just come back.

So this is the piece that I want to touch on now, which is the stress piece and the effect on your body. I think that we can get real deep into this idea that our body’s like a machine and all we need to do is eat this much food and then it’s going to spit out the results. And then maybe I don’t understand myself, I don’t think I tracked my food today, it’s all good. But that’s not what happened.

And so what is interesting is that your experience is not uncommon because we don’t know all of the things that happen to your body when your body is suspending menstruation, you know, when you’re not ovulating, ovulation has been taken off the table. We don’t really know what kind of physiological effect that has, but I would imagine that it’s a very stressful point in your body. Like, I would imagine that you’re like, in terms of like, if your body could talk—right, we can see it talking through the menstrual cycle—it would be a very stressful event.

And so I would imagine that it’s more than just eating a certain amount. It’s not like, I eat this many calories today, for this many days, and then I get my period. I think that there has to be a period of time when you’re getting enough energy to get, like, in your body, probably need some time to kind of trust that, okay, this food is going to keep coming before that period is going to be let out. I don’t know. I would be interested to hear your take on that.

Haley: I completely agree. And I think that’s such a good point. There is this, there has to be a trust and a trust with your body that I wasn’t going to continue eating that much or exercising that amount. There has to be this trust because my body was giving every resource it had to running the half marathon. So it’s probably like, I don’t know if we’re going to keep doing this. So I’m not going to put any energy towards ovulation because ovulation and the menstrual cycle, it is a huge metabolic activity.

So if I’m going to continue running in this way, it’s going to reserve everything it can to put towards that. And it’s going to put ovulation and conceiving on the back burner, rightfully so.

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there’s so many layers to it. But if I wasn’t ovulating, that means progesterone wasn’t rising. Progesterone, it’s stolen away to make more cortisol. But whenever I don’t have as much progesterone, I think of it as like this very like calming hormone. It can regulate our anxiety and our stress. And I just wasn’t producing it. So that contributed to like me physically feeling anxiety and probably not sleeping as well amongst other things. But it is such a crazy domino effect.

Lisa: Yeah, that’s a really interesting point as well because in the research, HA is discussed as a—they call it a hypoestrogenic condition, as if progesterone just doesn’t exist. And as if when you’re not ovulating, you’re not making progesterone also. So it’s bizarre that they just skip that part. And I know Dr. Jerilyn Prior talks about that a lot because she talks about the link between progesterone and bone health. And she wrote a recent paper that came out in 2020 where she’s fully calling out the researchers of like, why aren’t you talking about progesterone? Like, you’re not talking about the role of progesterone.

I think that that’s an interesting point because the research also shows that women who are in this state, this HA kind of spectrum state of amenorrhea, that whole situation, they respond differently to stress, tend to have higher levels of cortisol. Even the exercise research was showing that a lot of people say like, oh, I exercise to relieve stress. For women who are in this state of under-eating and over-exercising, the exercise caused their anxiety and their stress to rise.

Haley: Oh, interesting. I believe that. It makes a lot of sense.

Lisa: Because it’s never enough. Because it’s addictive, because it’s like I need to do more because I ate this thing and I need to. So it’s all just so fascinating and lines up with your experience.

A question for you, this could be like a kind of like a—it might feel really random. But you know, part of your journey, obviously, you went to nutrition school, right? And that played a part in a role in—and you mentioned it already—like some of the things you learned there kind of played into it. So knowing what you know now, reflecting back on your experience in nutrition school, are they setting women up for eating disorders—it’s not like unintentionally—in nutrition school? Is that a thing?

Haley: Ooh, that’s an interesting take. I think there are a ton of orthorexia. I think a lot of—well, even just so reflecting on my own experience of why did I even go to nutrition school? And I go back to that control piece that was part of it. I wanted to learn how to eat in a way to control my body, how it looked. I am very passionate about health, I’m curious about biology. There was all those components too. But I think I would be lying if I said it wasn’t to learn how to better control my body.

And I think where there’s a huge gap in nutrition school, mine included, is so much of the research is done on men, including things like intermittent fasting, one of the primary ones I would say that I see. So this research being done on men is being taught and applied to women. And it’s not helpful to us. It’s detrimental to our cycle and our hormones. So I don’t think that’s being talked about enough.

Now, I did take classes specifically on women’s health where these things were addressed, but if you’re not taking those classes, then I think it is. There are gaps, for sure. Are they setting us up for eating disorders? Like, you know, I think that’s maybe certain programs, that wasn’t my experience. But I think there’s a lot of gaps where people could take it and run and develop disordered eating patterns.

Like I was in a class like therapeutic diets where things like intermittent fasting were talked about, the benefits of it. But if you’re talking to people who have these orthorexic and disordered eating patterns, then if you’re like me, I was like, okay, I can cure my SIBO, I can be less bloated, I can poop better, and I can have a smaller body. So like, that was my train of thought at that time. So I think there’s a lot of layers to it.

Lisa: Well, it’s like totally an unfair question. I didn’t know a better way to word it. I probably could have come up with it.

Haley: I get what you’re saying.

Lisa: Yeah. But I mean, I guess the reason that I ask and I think about that is because there does seem to be this kind of a couple of things. One of the things that I didn’t realize, because I’m not a nutritionist, is that a lot of nutritionists, so not for all, but a good percentage of nutritionists, and again, correct me if I’m wrong, a good percentage of nutritionists, a large portion of their work is to support people with weight loss.

And so that’s really interesting because in my work, the weight loss conversation is not a primary or even secondary or even tertiary part of the work. It obviously could be relevant. There are situations when an individual may have to look at that option for fertility if there’s an issue there, if there’s a metabolic issue there, etc. But for the most part, you know, with me looking at the menstrual cycle, the cycle is what determines what I’m doing. And the weight part of it is not a part of my work. The weight conversation—I have yet to have a conversation with a client that starts with “and you need to lose weight.” Like, that’s just not a thing that has ever happened.

So I guess the context for that question is when I personally think about that and reflect on that and think that all nutritionists are trained to help people with weight loss, you already are trained to sort this out for yourself if that’s a thing that you were wanting to do, more so than someone who didn’t go through nutrition school.

Haley: No, I think you’re onto something. And again, that’s why I love charting so much. I actually had two people reach out to me in the last 24 hours asking my approach and they were wondering about like the health at every size approach. And I was like, their body size doesn’t matter to me. Like I’m going to go off of what their chart tells me. You know, I have clients that others would deem overweight and you know, you could look at them like, oh yeah, you probably need to lose weight. But they have a beautiful chart versus someone who’s very thin and society might deem is healthier, but their chart is a mess.

So that is what I love about charting is I don’t care what size your body is. What is your chart telling us? Yes, there are situations where someone could benefit from losing weight and we see shorter pre-ovulatory phases, for example, if they’re on like the PCOS spectrum. But that’s not the case for everybody.

So yeah, weight loss, it’s not even at the top of the list of the conversation. And again, everyone’s different, but like that study that you recently referenced and that we’ve talked about, you know, they showed that being in a calorie deficit, which simply put, that’s what’s needed for weight loss, it’s going to affect your hormones. It’s going to decrease estrogen and progesterone. So yeah, weight loss and fertility and preconception, it’s a mismatch.

Lisa: It’s just such an interesting conversation because I mean, I think at some point maybe I should, you know, maybe I’ll consider having someone on the show to talk about weight loss in a different context because it’s not just—like I do understand in the general sense that there are obviously times when weight loss is beneficial. We know that being overweight, obese or morbidly obese comes with a whole lot of problems that most of us don’t want. So we’re not having this conversation in a vacuum.

The irony is that a lot of my clients who are on that HA spectrum, who are obsessed with weight loss, for lack of a better word, don’t necessarily need to—like, it’s not because they’re overweight that they want to lose weight. So we’re talking about different things here, right? Like what the average person who’s on the spectrum who’s trying to maintain—because sometimes it’s about losing weight, sometimes it’s about maintaining a specific body size—and those individuals are often not even close to what you would term overweight whatsoever, and likely just don’t even need to be doing this from a health standpoint. They want to do it for their own personal reasons, but not objectively because they need to lose weight.

Haley: Exactly. I mean, yes, like of course these are not blanket statements. Of course we’re talking about a spectrum. It’s going to be individualistic for every single person. But I think we have to start bringing a conversation that you might need to gain weight if you are on the HA spectrum, not even maintain. You may need to be in a surplus state and gain weight to get your cycle back. And that needs to start being more of a conversation.

Lisa: Well, I remember we had a very brief conversation around that. And I think it was me just asking some questions to gain a better understanding. Did your weight change following the marathon and those kinds of things. And it’s not an easy discussion. It’s easy for someone to listen into this podcast, like in general, or this particular episode, and think to themselves like, well, it’s easy. She’s got it completely solved now. Or Lisa’s got this completely solved. And that’s all. We’re all a work in progress. We all have our different challenges that we’re working on.

I always say the menstrual cycle is a great equalizer because it really brings it into reality as to what needs to happen for your cycle. But maybe share with us a little bit about that piece of it. And just in general, I’d love to get your take on, okay, so now you’ve gone through this journey, you went through this interesting, fascinating experiment to do it while charting with all the knowledge that you have, and to see what it took for you to start cycling normally again. I think that that really is a fascinating kind of thing to be able to share with us as well.

What, looking back, like, what advice would you have for somebody? If you have advice to offer, who’s in a similar situation? Would you do anything differently? If you could go back and do the marathon thing again, right? Like, what are your takeaways?

Haley: Yeah. Great question. I remember that conversation in our class together. And I think you asked me, are you willing to gain weight? And I actually made it real about this. But like, I felt that my body tensed up. And I was like, oh my gosh, like, no, no. And I think it’s a really insightful question to ask yourself, are you willing to gain weight? And if you freeze up, if you get clammy like I did, that’s probably really good information, especially if you’re someone who’s struggling to conceive. Maybe there’s a missing puzzle piece in that.

Because while I was training for this half marathon and in my recovery, which I think is an important piece to talk about too, how long it took me to start ovulating again, it wasn’t any of the fancy supplements I was trying, which I loved because I’m a practitioner and I wanted to experiment with supplements. What really shifted the needle for me came down 100% to those foundational factors: stopped exercising as much, continued eating as much as I was eating, probably more. You’d be happy to hear that I loaded up on liver for a very, very long time. I was actually eating liver, not even taking the supplements. I was eating liver because I found it at a new grocery store and I found a way to eat it. Therapy is my staple for stress management. That was a huge part of my recovery and just my life in general. And then I was sleeping better, really, really prioritizing sleep, like crazy early bedtimes.

So those were my staples in recovery. And with all that in place, the half marathon was in the beginning of June. I didn’t have that first ovulatory cycle until, I think it crossed over between October and November. So it still took three to four months to recover, which I thought was really insightful because anytime I work with clients, I know you do this too, you need to give me at least three months to move the needle. Because again, I think it’s that trust piece of your body trusting that you’re going to continue this. And that’s just how long it takes to really move the needle whenever we’re trying to change the menstrual cycle.

So yes, that was a lot of my recovery. That’s how long it took. Would I do anything different? There were factors out of my control. Maybe if I wasn’t going through the stress I was with the breakup and the anxiety I was experiencing and sleepless nights, maybe my situation would have been different.

At the end of the day, I enjoyed the half marathon. It was a beautiful experience. It was a trail run. So I was in Oregon and it was an amazing forest. So it was something I enjoyed. People ask me, are you going to run any more half marathons? My answer is no. It just wasn’t worth it for me. It wasn’t worth the strain on my body. It wasn’t worth the losing my cycle. Like, again, watching my parameters tank.

I did it once and I’m happy I did it. And like I said before, I did it at a time in my life where I know I’m nowhere near trying to conceive. But now I’m in my early 30s. I’m still not ready to conceive, but it is something I want eventually. So I am kind of shifted to this season of preserving my fertility, knowing that it’s still going to be a couple years until I conceive, if not more.

Yeah, a lot of layers to it. The factors I could control—maybe I would have tried to eat more and maybe not train as hard and trust that I’ll just be able to do it when the time comes.

Lisa: Yeah. That’s so interesting that you—because I didn’t, that’s a really good question, like I didn’t think to ask. I’m glad that you volunteered that. Like, would you run it again? And I think it’s interesting that you said no, because you saw how it affected your body.

You know, one of the ways that I talk about a lot in terms of the menstrual cycle, I always say the menstrual cycle helps, at least me when tracking it. It prevents me from going over the edge because we all have things we like. So I legitimately, when I was a teenager, gummy candies were like a food group. Like I was just really addicted to sure—it’s one of the reasons that I’m very passionate about talking about balancing your macro ratio and stuff like that. Because part of that was because I wasn’t getting enough protein.

And I was—I wouldn’t say I was under-eating for sure because I didn’t have an issue with that. I was very active in sports and I ate all the time, so I was good. But what I would say is that my macros were totally imbalanced. There was like not enough protein on plenty—like oatmeal for breakfast over here, right? Like ramen noodles for lunch, right? Like all that kind of nonsense. And then yeah, I’d get a lot of protein and meat and stuff in the evenings or whatever. But ultimately throughout the day, it wasn’t balanced.

So I swear I was going somewhere with that. But ultimately, I think that looking back at that time, having that macro kind of imbalance thing was a big piece of it for me. And okay, that’s where I was going with it. All of the sugar eating, for me, looking back retrospectively, was that I was hungry, right? Like, that’s why I was doing that.

So, well, so one question that comes to mind as we start wrapping up, what are your cycles like now? So this is—so kind of the recap is that you were, towards the beginning of the program, what we were working on the most was your mucus production. And I feel like over the time, because this was a situation where we kind of threw everything at it, but in retrospect, from my perspective, after going through the kind of two years FAMM program, alumni program, in retrospect, I think that there was the under-eating piece of it. I think that you were probably just not getting enough overall to eat.

And I feel like we had picked up on that, but I was kind of just—I’m not a like a, even though you might think that in programs, I’m sitting there with like a ruler or something and telling people what to do. I’m more of a nudger. I feel like I’m a firm nudger, but I’m still a nudger, and at the end of the day, I respect where my clients are at. At least I do my best to do so. So, yeah. So, share with us what’s happening now in your cycle. I feel like this is such a fun opportunity to come full circle.

Haley: Yeah. Yeah, especially because it’s been exactly a year. I mean, we’re recording this at the end of March, which is probably when I was having my first ovulatory cycle. So, it is really interesting to reflect on.

Yeah, to your piece of a pattern of under-eating, because of my history with disordered eating, I was known for someone who religiously tracked my food. But even if I was eating enough, one of the first things I saw that moved the needle for me before the half marathon was the protein piece. When I started tracking, I was always having really low temperatures. And that was the first thing that was cool to see shift the needle was when I started adding protein, specifically animal source protein, was what was the first thing that raised my temperatures.

So to even continue to be eating that amount of animal protein, but then when I started training and running to see those temperatures drop, that was really insightful.

So post-marathon and recovery, what I’m most excited about is, like we’ve alluded to, I have a history of just really low cervical mucus production. I remember always asking you, like, help me increase it. How do I get more? Because like all of the other girls in the program, like they were having these like beautiful charts with like three to five days of like abundant cervical mucus. And I was like, lucky if I was maybe seeing like a 10CK one time.

So, and it just makes tracking more fun too. Like I wanted to see cervical mucus. Now I am getting a regular, I would say, three to four days of cervical mucus, which is amazing for me. So more cervical mucus than I’ve ever had since I’ve been tracking. Temperatures are strong again. You know, they’re 97.4 and above post-ovulation and I’m hitting about the 98s after ovulation. And they’re back to being about 28 to 30 days. So strong parameters all around, minimal pain, a good flow. So yeah, it’s really exciting to see how I’ve recovered and to see them be stronger than before this whole mess started.

Lisa: Well, you know, congratulations.

Haley: Thank you.

Lisa: I feel like this is great because I know that’s what you were working on. There’s so many pieces of it that I could allude to. I think this really kind of solidifies when I talk about—like it’s a broken record over here beating the dead horse—the menstrual cycle as a vital sign. Because I mean, this wasn’t something where you could just chart one cycle and have all the insight.

This tracking thing is a process. And what I aim to kind of bring my practitioners and my clients into is this as a process. And it’s as you track and as you see, when you do your experiments—so everyone isn’t going to go run a half marathon, but whatever experiments you do, you start to actually see and then you get into relationship with your body. And eventually, the goal is to find your personal sweet spot, which is not going to be the same as everybody else’s. You have to kind of try different things to figure out where does my body feel good.

And if anyone is listening and like, why they keep talking about cervical mucus, like what does that have to do with me? So cervical mucus is an indirect measure of your hormone production. And so when you have like a healthy cycle and you’re making adequate hormones, like you’re producing adequate estrogen in the follicular and adequate progesterone in the luteal, you’re going to see good mucus leading up to ovulation. So, you know, good mucus is typically four to five days-ish on average. And then you’re going to see a strong healthy luteal, you know, you’re going to have the 12 to 14 days, you’re not going to have a ton of premenstrual spotting, PMS symptoms or anything, you know, you’re not going to have a short luteal, right? Like it’s going to be overall good.

And the other part of your story too is that this—not only did it take a bit of time for your cycle to return at all, right? But it took you personally, like a good year or so or more of charting to get to this point where you actually feel now, I’m sure, a lot more confident about what you need to do for your own self. And you probably learned that what you needed to do was different to what you would have thought.

I would imagine, so I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I would imagine that some of those conversations we had early on about the mucus, you were hoping I would just tell you to take the vitamin. Just take the vitamin, just take the thing. I heard about this thing. I’m not going to say the things, but you’ve all heard of the things you could take. Take this, take that, and then you just magically have mucus, but you can’t override your hormone system.

Haley: Well, and I tried it, like, I tried all the fancy supplements, I tried the protocols, and, you know, it had a float sum. I do think there were some supplements that—

Lisa: Oh, they do. There’s things you can do to make the mucus flow. Trust me.

Haley: Yes. Yes. But is that really what is—like, right? So you can tell why I feel like my approach is kind of annoying, because, like, yes, I could tell you the magical supplement to take to make the mucus flow, but that doesn’t address the fact that we’re already—

Haley: And is it going to be sustainable? Like it’s not at the root level. Like what is truly going to move the needle? It has to be a lifestyle change. It has to be behavior change.

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. So interesting, right?

Haley: Yeah.

Lisa: So that’s why it takes a bit of time. It’s why, like, even for—I have a lot of longtime listeners. Like it’s amazing. I talked to a woman. She interviewed me for her podcast a few weeks ago, and she’s like, I’ve been listening since 2014. And I was like, what?

Haley: A lot of hours in my voice.

Lisa: There’s a lot of—I mean, we talk about so many things on the podcast, but the true kind of like, like change, like fundamental change that you experience when you kind of go through all of this. That’s what happens on the other side of this podcast. That’s what happens in my programs and all of those kinds of things to really like, if you want to go in the weeds, like we go, right?

Haley: For sure. You can test that. For sure.

Lisa: So I’m just so thankful for this conversation. This has been just so great. And I literally could talk to you all day. We could easily keep going.

Haley: No, and I, yeah, to your point of just, it takes time to build this library of charts. And it’s cool. And it’s a beautiful thing to like see your charts through the different seasons of your life. And I can look back on that chart a year ago and be like, oh, yeah, that was a really hard time of my life. But look how it’s changed. And it’s beautiful. And it takes a long time, but to have this level of body literacy and making conscious choices.

Yeah, like I said, I first saw how diet did change my cycles, but this past year I got to see firsthand how the exercise affected it. And like you said, it’s not how I thought it would. I thought I was invincible. I grew up running. I grew up playing soccer. So I had no idea it affected me this much. And you taught us this like from day one, and we went into the weeds with it. But to experience it firsthand, it makes it really, really real. So I have this new level of compassion and understanding for my clients in this way too. So yeah, it takes time, but it’s so worth it.

Lisa: Well, thank you so much for—I’m honestly like pulling myself back because I could like, I have another like 45 minutes in me, but I’m like—

Haley: Well, let’s do part two, I’d love to come back.

Lisa: Yeah, for sure. Because this, I mean, I’m so positive. This conversation is just going to be fascinating to so many women because it really, it’s hard to put it into words, right? Until you experience the transformative nature of it. I mean, it’s not even—you’re not even, it’s not like—we’re not exaggerating. And everyone doesn’t have like this earth-shattering profound experience, but most clients do once they’ve charted for long enough to actually see how much you can personally, like how much your actions, your lifestyle pieces, like how much that actually impacts it.

So yeah, like you don’t have to take our word for it. Like if you’re charting or you can start charting, like see it for yourself. Like your chart will not lie. It is literally in your face on a day-to-day basis.

Haley: So—and then one, I mean, one last thing, right? But one thing that came to mind especially with like me joking like, oh, just give me the magical supplement, right? I just want my mucus now. But when you’re in this process and this phase, it cuts through all the nonsense. Like this is the hard thing to put across on a podcast, but like we deal with all these different topics and everything.

But when you’re hearing in that male influencer space like intermittent fast and like eat one meal a day, right? Like if you follow these real hardcore male influencers, right? And there are people who can significantly benefit from that. It’s not to say that, but the average woman of normal weight range, sure, give it a try, but chart and see what happens. And that’s what I will always love about—that’s what I’ll always go back to. Because we can have all of our ideas, our notions, we can read stuff, you can read books, you can read this and that, we can have all of these conversations. But what really matters from my perspective is what’s actually happening in that chart.

Lisa: Yeah. So I’m going to—we can, this will be the wrap up. This is actually—we’re actually doing it because I could just keep going. So Haley, let us know where we can go. Tell us what you’re up to, website, Instagram handle, what you’re working on, all the things.

Haley: Yeah, thank you. So my hybrid practice where I help put all of this education and real life experience into play is Innate Rhythm. My website is innaterhythm.com. And I’m really excited because in the next month, so by the time this podcast is released, I will have a free master course for people to come and be a part of where I really walk through the foundational factors that we’ve talked about—sleep, exercise, stress management, and nutrition. So I put it into a fertility blueprint that you will have access to, and then just walk through my step-by-step process of finding the missing answers as to why you’re not conceiving. And then a lot of what we talked about in this podcast of how can we move the needle at that foundational level. So if you go to my website, or if you go to my Instagram, those are probably the two best places to find it. My Instagram is haleysmith.fa.

Lisa: All right, well, I’ll make sure to link to the show notes all the places if you’re listening on the go. And thank you so much for being here. This has just been such a fun conversation.

Haley: Oh my gosh. I’ve enjoyed every second. Thank you.

Lisa: Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it with a friend. You’ll find the show notes page for today’s episode over at fertilityfriday.com/481. I hope that you enjoyed today’s episode with Haley. Obviously, I was thrilled to have this opportunity to nerd out about the cycle and to really get into it and to witness her process.

What I always say behind the scenes to clients and practitioners alike is that there’s a huge difference from reading something in the book. So for example, reading about fertility awareness cycle charting, reading in my book, The Fifth Vital Sign, or Toni Weschler’s book, Taking Charge of Your Fertility, and learning about how the cycle works. That’s one level of learning, right? And it’s, you get it in your head, but that’s kind of, that’s one level of learning. And I think when we read about it, we can get it in a way, but we don’t have it kind of in our bones. Like it’s not something that we know for sure to be true. It’s just something that we are interested in and excited about.

Then there’s the second level, which is to start charting and to start to see these changes. And I think that is an important phase that you can’t teach. You can’t just read a book and actually have the experience. So having the experience of charting and actually witnessing just the, even just the basic, you witness ovulation and then you witness the changes that come there. You start to understand how cervical mucus precedes ovulation and you see the ovulation happen and the change in mucus, you see the change in temperature if you’re checking cervical position. So when you actually experience that, that’s a second level, that’s deeper.

And then there’s a third level. And for my clients who are trying to avoid pregnancy in particular, I often use it as an example because it’s one thing to read it in a book that there’s a period of time in your cycle where conception is impossible. It’s another thing to even chart your cycles and to see that shift, but it’s a completely separate thing to actually then have unprotected sex on an infertile day and then get your period and then keep doing that over and over again for years. Once you’re in that place, you know that it works. It’s not a theory. It’s not theoretical. It’s not a coincidence, right? It’s something that you know that it works because you’ve done it and you’ve had the experience.

And so although this isn’t exactly the same as that third level, when you have an experience like that where you, you know, you were cycling and then you saw the luteal phase shift and change. And then you stopped cycling and you saw what you had to do to bring it back. Again, that brings you to a completely different level of understanding because this is no longer theoretical information. This is actual real experience, the lived information.

And again, this is the place that I aim to bring clients and practitioners alike because this is a really transformative spot because it’s not about listening on a podcast and kind of like thinking it’s cool, like that sounds so cool, that vital sign, like wow. But it’s you’re living it. Like it’s a completely different experience when you’re actually living it and learning about it and then using that information to make choices. So knowing that when you do XYZ, it can have this effect on your cycle and then making different choices.

Again, I never promote striving to be perfect or having perfection, but you start to make choices where you’re intentional and you understand the effects that whatever you’re doing can have on your cycle and that is a really great place to be. So again, love nerding out about this stuff. So thrilled to have had Haley on the show to share her insights. So I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And with that said, I hope you have a wonderful week, weekend, whenever you’re tuning into the show and of course, as always until next time, be well and happy charting.