When Is the Best Time to Start Teaching Fertility Awareness? (Episode 544)

Full Transcript: Episode 544

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Today I’m sharing another brand new episode in my FAMM practitioner series. I’m sharing my interview with Chloe VanLente. We recorded this episode in the final months of our FAMM program together. And what’s interesting about today’s episode is that Chloe actually has a background in fertility awareness before she joined our Fertility Awareness Mastery Mentorship Program. She was a previous graduate of the Grace of the Moon program, now The Well. And throughout the series, I’ve really enjoyed hearing more about how our practitioners discovered fertility awareness, the impact it’s made on their lives and in their practices. And before we jump into today’s episode, I want to share a little bit about Chloe. Chloe VanLente is a holistic arts practitioner who specializes in women and infant wellness through specialized bodywork, movement and body-based education. She helps people feel confident and informed about what actually happens in the body through all phases of womanhood naturally. She lives in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan in the United States and works both online and in person in her private Healing Arts Center. So without further ado, let’s go ahead and jump into today’s episode with Chloe.

And I’m really excited to be here today with Chloe. Welcome to the show.

Chloe VanLente: Hi, thank you.

Lisa: Well, I — we were just chatting a little bit in the pre-chat. Anyone who’s listened to the podcast for a while knows that these are some of my favorite episodes. I love having the opportunity to chat with our FAMM practitioners and at the time that we’re recording this I still can’t believe that we’re almost towards the end of the program because it really does feel like it just flew. I feel like we started just a couple months ago but no, it was like eight and a half months. It’s kind of crazy. But yeah, so with that said, really excited to chat with you today, get a little bit deeper into your own story. And so I’d love to start with one of my favorite questions, which is how old were you when you had your first period? And take us through what, I suppose, what led you to jump into fertility awareness charting, and of course what led you to jump into the FAMM program as well at this time.

Chloe: Yeah. So I started my first period when I was 10 years old. It had been my birthday wish for two years because I lived in a really small town where our grades were combined and my older friends had started to get theirs and I always wanted to be older. So I was really, really excited to do it. And I remember starting at my aunt’s house and also being really scared to tell anyone because my mom wasn’t there. But then when everyone came back, then being like, I’m really kind of mocking about it — oh, my period cramps — and having no idea what they were saying. And I was a ballerina growing up as well. So I don’t remember the first few years being hard, but when I got into my teens, I had really bad migraines around my period. And eventually they got to be really bad cramps going into college when I was on a college diet and poor and couldn’t afford nutrition. So that was, that was the start of that.

I started charting — well, actually, the first time I had heard anything about tracking was actually when I was a senior in high school. I read a Tom Robbins book, Still Life with Woodpecker, and they mentioned just using the full moon as something — which was like the only reference I had ever heard anyone say about doing anything with their periods or timing. So that was the intro. But it wasn’t until I was actually already a Maya abdominal therapy practitioner, and I started seeing people for painful periods as a massage therapist. And eventually people started coming in for fertility issues too. And I remember someone saying that they had a short luteal phase and having no idea what it was. So like as I’m taking notes about them, writing “Google short luteal phase later” to see. And from there, it led me to the Taking Charge of Your Fertility book. And when I got it, I read the whole thing in like a night. And it’s like a hefty 500-page whatever, but I like gobbled it up. So immediately looked into taking a training. Actually, I had already taken a fertility awareness training back in 2016, 2017. That was a two-year program and loved it, but life happened, the pandemic happened. And I had a really hard time integrating it in sustainably. So it would just be really sporadic, because my primary job is as a body worker, but also I was just super burnt out. So when I saw that you were offering this class again, I was just so excited to kind of get revitalized and excited about things again. And it worked.

Lisa: Well, thank you for taking us through that. I find it so interesting to discover how each of our practitioners have found FAMM. I find it just to be so interesting to look back. And I also found it interesting when you said that you had your first period at 10, but that you were excited for it. I’ve spoken to many women who had their period around that age and you’re the first who was actually ready and prepared. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and why your experience of that was so different?

Chloe: I mean, I think when I was 10 I didn’t even know I would have been like the other — like at that particular age — because I remember my first friend got her period, I think when I was in the maybe third or fourth grade. And I remember she said something about pads and I was like, what, like to write on? And then she was like, no, no, no, like my period. And I was like, I knew what it was, I knew what she meant, but I was kind of like, oh my gosh, that’s a thing, right? Because we were so young. Yeah.

And you know, what’s funny too about that — just hearing your experience — is my parents were divorced and lived in different cities. So they lived about three hours apart. And I remember finding my mom’s old pads underneath the bathroom sink and being like, what are these for? And my dad is truly like, in the people that I knew at the time, the most educated on all things body — he had a master’s in kinesiology, wanted to be a chiropractor, was like excellent with nutrition and chemistry — and explained it to me. And I just remember like wanting to die inside being like, oh, I don’t want to talk to you about any of this. And I was pretty young at that point. But then, you know, even when I lived with my mom over on Mackinac Island, no one was very women-powered or like female bodies are awesome by any means. And I think again, I think it was just having older friends. I was the only person — or there was two other people in my grade. And since I hung out with the older kids, I just wanted to be older so bad that as soon as I had any shot of seeming or appearing older, I was like, yes. And I said that two of my birthday wishes were starting my period, but I also wished for like a C cup and a D cup. I mean, I was really like, I cannot wait to be this female body someday.

Lisa: Oh, I love that. That’s really cool. It just shows the variety of everyone’s experience. I can certainly resonate with that, but I had to wait a lot longer. So I had to wait until I was around 13-ish, maybe on the cusp of 14. So I also wanted a C cup or a D. Did it happen?

Chloe: It didn’t happen for me. I feel like I was a good — I was like a strong B for a really long time. And then after having kids, I’ve morphed into more of a C. So TMI for everybody who did not need that information, but now have it.

Lisa: When I was pregnant, I was finally like a D cup. And then I was like, oh, but no one can care. So.

Chloe: Yeah. Nothing like the milk coming in to bring in the D’s.

Lisa: But no, that’s really interesting. And it sounds like your experience with menstruation kind of fluctuated. At first, maybe it wasn’t — it was kind of like a non-thing. And then it changed. And you mentioned your college diet. I think maybe a lot of us wouldn’t even think to attribute that to particularly difficult periods at that time. And you mentioned that Tom Robbins book — that was really interesting as well, because it wasn’t a direct reference, but it was the thing that kind of made you think about cycles, which I think is really interesting. So share a little bit then about — you did talk a little bit about your experience with Maya abdominal therapy. And yeah, I just want to hear a little bit more about that and also about the training that you had.

Chloe: Yeah, so I got into Maya abdominal therapy — I mean, this was like, the internet was around but everything wasn’t so available. So I had already had my first baby and I think it was in a Midwifery Today magazine where there was like a very, very small advertisement in this magazine saying that there would be a training and it helped with painful periods. And I had heard other people say that after you have a baby, your periods would get better. And mine were not that way. Mine got significantly worse. And I remember getting my first period after having my son and having this like full body PTSD of like, oh my God, I’m in labor again. This is awful.

So I found out that this thing existed and then totally fell in love. The first time, the first initial class that you took at the time was a self-care course. And I didn’t have the greatest results — it was like a day class, a practitioner did a really quick session. And I remember being so shy about showing my abdomen because I had struggled with eating disorders in the past. I had a bunch of emotional experiences and just being like, oh, I actually can’t breathe. And I felt like it wasn’t a great experience. But I was like, ah, but if I could help other people. So it wasn’t like a self thing, it was like, but I could help others. So I’ll keep doing it. And then when I went to the professional training, which was a roughly five or six day training at the time, that was when I got really connected to the other students and felt really secure and safe in my body and had a really wonderful experience with that. And besides the sisterhood of that course, what I really loved was the next time I had a period, I started — I’m going to say like quote unquote accidentally — because I didn’t have raging PMS for the first time and I didn’t have any pain or symptoms leading up. I just started my period somewhere and was like, this hasn’t happened in years. So it was really a wonderful experience and then it still is a major foundation of my practice now.

Lisa: Oh, that’s — I just really appreciate the explanation of that. It’s really interesting how even though you didn’t necessarily see immediate benefit you still saw that others could and then eventually you did. That’s really interesting. And it’s something that I’ve carried out throughout my practice now too — where for the first five years of doing it I started that in 2013, so it’s 2024, it’s been a minute since I’ve started that — but so for the first like four or five years of doing abdominal work, you know, I’d start out like they showed us — I’d start out with the abdominal massage and people would be like you can go deeper, or they’d be horrified and I’d be like you’re not letting me in. And it takes the whole session to make any progress. But I actually implement another strategy now first, which is way gentler and easier, and I make sure that I connect with people a lot more so that then when I do the abdominal massage it’s easy and they have no idea that they would have ever fought me on it. But I try to really build up that connection first so everyone feels a little bit more supported. It’s truly incredible if you think about what a few years of practice will do in terms of just building your skills and your confidence.

Lisa: What’s key there is that you’re creating the environment — you have a strategy to build trust and ensure the clients are relaxed so that you can then do what you needed to do in the first place. But if you started there, it wouldn’t necessarily be as efficient, or even some people wouldn’t even let you do it.

Chloe: Oh, absolutely. And it’s pretty amazing to see people being like, wow, I’m really trying to relax — their brain can trust me but their body is a whole other story. So seeing that brain-body connection in real life has just been a wonderful experience.

Lisa: Yeah. I definitely have not had the experience of physical bodywork because it’s not part of what I do, but I do find that I have strategies that — it feels like it’s natural after you’ve done it for so long. And I sometimes question the word “natural” because it’s like is it? Or is it just that I’ve done this for so long? But I feel like I often try to create that environment with just a variety of different things. Like obviously having the podcast — anyone who listens to it for a long time hears a lot of my voice, gets to know me. And you could probably attest that I’m pretty much the same all the time. So it’s kind of like a strange phenomenon because you kind of feel like you know somebody although you’ve never really met them. So that kind of sets the stage. And then the way that you interact with clients.

And some of the feedback about the podcast — like what’s with her weird laughter, like why does she laugh all the time? But I find that — first of all, deal with it — but the other thing is that I think that’s one of the ways that I have naturally broken down those walls and tried to help. It’s not something I consciously do. I don’t feel like I consciously do it. But being kind of humorous and making jokes and taking the seriousness out of things — I feel like it’s part of one of the things that I have wound up doing. I’m aware now that that’s something that helps people feel more comfortable.

Chloe: Yeah. I mean, I think laughter always sort of takes a risk out of scenarios. Especially — I mean you cover such a wide range of topics in your podcast and I love what you do with female body and women’s health and all the things that can happen. But I’m sure a lot of people found your podcast by Googling symptoms or something like, what’s wrong with me, what’s happening? So if you could add any sort of humor to that, I think that’s amazing. And I do want to say — just because you made that comment — I think you hold a wonderful container. You are funny and you’re also direct and you just do such a wonderful job at holding the space for us to all stay on track and go together versus having this like open, chaotic, swirly all over the place.

Lisa: Well, thank you for that. That’s really nice feedback. I like when — if you sit down and think about all the things that we’ve talked about in class, and for any of our podcast listeners who’ve listened for a while, any of the topics that we’ve broached on the podcast over the past 10 years — I keep throwing that in because I’m still celebrating the fact that it’s been that long — there’s a lot of really hard stuff that we talk about. A lot of stuff that doesn’t just roll off the tongue. So there’s so many difficult experiences that our clients have gone through, so many really awful experiences that women have shared in the reality series over the years. And yeah, so I feel like you kind of — at least for me, in order to continue to just sit with all of that — I think it’s just my natural response to find the humor in it. There’s a lot of the reality of some of the challenges, but what else can you do but just poke fun at it a little bit, even though it’s not always fun?

Lisa: Well then I suppose one of the things that has come up a lot this year — and I know we’ve spoken about this in class — which is you know, don’t be intimidated if you have a client that comes to you to learn charting if they’ve had experience. So thinking about jumping into this program after having taken a full two-year program — I think the natural question is like, what could you possibly learn, right? You’ve already learned it all. So maybe share a little bit about what your experience was, for anyone who has those same questions.

Chloe: Yeah, absolutely. Well, the first training that I took was also wonderful — it was a two-year program. And truly the programs are so different. So that one — we met every Wednesday and she had done a really great job at holding this container of sisterhood and circle. So I think there was 10 other girls in the program and I knew what day of their cycle they were on all the time. And we did a lot of our own research to present to our classmates as part of the lessons. And so at the time I had been out of school for a little bit and it kind of switched my brain into like, okay, this is how I look for this. I loved it. Some of the differences were like we used Kindara a lot, and then we group cervical mucus different than the Justisse method which you had shared with us. And so I said I could have gone with that forever and probably never taken a training and still helped people in light-on situations, but I didn’t feel like I was so far removed from it that I had to join something else. It was just kind of like I needed more to support people at the time and I really needed that passion and reignition to jump in.

And I had noticed that I was getting into this rut — not with a certain demographic of people of like culture or religion or anything — but there were certain people seeking something that I was noticing frustrations coming up against, and I really needed some extra support around how am I going to show up as a practitioner. And what really led to the training was I had three people reach out to me in the same week of, hey, do you still teach charting? And I hadn’t at that point for a while. And I was like, okay, the first time I was like, well I could — and then the second time I was like, wow — and the third time I was like, okay, all right, universe, I heard you. And then honestly — I know this sounds nuts — but your email showed up out of nowhere seemingly to my inbox and I was like, oh, okay. And then I just kind of followed the breadcrumbs.

And what I really loved about your program was you had such a container of resources and support, and I really didn’t want to reinvent the wheel again. I really needed a solid framework of someone to take me through — to go, okay, I know this. And the best part about taking this training, or taking this training for the first time but kind of building on it, is it’s not like starting over. I already have a foundation. And it’s so nice to apply experience with other clients and to really sandwich this on top, and to just know more tools. And the way that you teach is slightly different — the methods are slightly different — and I love that too, because now I get to think back on clients and think, ah, this would have really helped them, or oh, I wonder if that was going on.

Lisa: No, that’s really helpful and I really appreciate how you laid it out because I think as you get to a certain place in your professional development — in one area or another, if you’re growing, eventually you will hit the limitations of what you know in a certain area. And so I’m a firm believer in professional development and I’m always doing a variety of different professional development opportunities within the field itself but also within the business field. And in order to stay current — and maybe your clients start asking for different things — and it’s when that kind of stuff happens, when you realize, oh wow, I actually don’t know how to answer that question, or oh wow, I actually don’t know how to help you with that — that’s where I feel like the professional development piece comes in. So it’s really helpful to hear how you were able to build on what you had learned before and learn a few new things.

Chloe: Well, so the other thing is I took the other training when I was like 26 and 27. And you know, every new training that I did or have done, I always thought that I was going to save the world and everyone was going to start charting and there would be like no more fertility clinics because people would learn so much and everyone would be so inspired by this knowledge. Now that I’m no longer in my 20s and I’ve worked with people a lot more, it’s helped me come at it from this place of like, okay, what will this person absorb? How can I help this person? So my perspective on working with people has changed. And I say that with the utmost love — like sometimes people are going to eat everything up, like I did with the Taking Charge of Your Fertility book the first time I read it, and sometimes people are going to hear things three or four times before they really hear it. And you’ve reiterated that in the program for me too, when I’ve been like, I don’t understand, I’ve already told them — and you’re like, sometimes I have to hear it again.

And the other part of that too was that I said I took that training close to nine years ago, so I was open to the idea that some things had maybe changed and I didn’t know what they were. Whether that was more research or more current stuff — it sounds like everywhere I go, menopause and perimenopause are all the rage, and I didn’t know anything about that at the time. So I just wanted to be like, if I’m going to actually dip my toes back in the water and step into this, how can I do it not from old information or what was true and current at the time but like the updated 2024 version.

Do you want to know what actually sold me on the class? I was going to do it anyway but what immediately got me to put my credit card numbers in — you said that you were going to send this if I signed up in time and I was like, oh, paper? You bet.

Lisa: So that was the official draw. So what Chloe’s talking about is our FAMM practitioner workbook. So we behind the scenes have all of that information online in digital form and we always have. So our practitioners always gain access to all of our documents, handouts, templates, and we’re always adding to it. We have practitioner protocol checklists and we have intake forms and just a lot of stuff that we’ve developed over the years. My team and I were thinking of what we can do to really inspire our practitioners right around the time that we were launching the program. And so we decided, oh well, let’s just make it into a book. We were thinking like, oh, it’ll be like 50 to 100 pages — we had no idea. So we made this thing and it turned out to be legit 250 pages, which was just — I work digitally right, so I don’t need to print everything off all the time. So to see the vastness of what we did create was kind of like, wow. But anyway, so thank you for sharing that as well.

Lisa: I wanted to go back to one of the things you said — now I’m forgetting what it was, it was really good though. What were your two last points again?

Chloe: My two last points were — I was in my mid-20s when I initially took the training and now I’m in my mid-30s, so my perspective on working with people now has changed. And my second point was what I learned close to 10 years ago was true 10 years ago, and I was open to what had changed and new information.

Lisa: Thank you. Yeah. One of the things I just want to go back to — that shift in perspective — because I think one of the benefits — and I’m getting a lot of great feedback these days because I’m definitely older than I was when I started in this field, so I am turning 42 this year. I keep saying like, how old am I, like how have I been podcasting for 10 years, how have I been charting for like 20-plus years, how have I been teaching for two decades? But it is what it is, and I did discover charting at a young age — I was about 18 or 19 when I started — and that was over 20 years ago. And I did start teaching women pretty much right out of the gate because it was part of my own journey of finding it, working with people, and then immediately being part of a group and being an organizer.

So I feel like I’ve gone through all the stages. I went through the stage of like, everybody needs to know, I’m going to shove this down everybody’s throat right now, like everybody needs to chart. And you know, if you keep acting like that you’re not going to have any friends. So I discovered that pretty quick. My husband used to play — he still plays in a band — and he used to play at this pub every Monday night, so I used to go support him. And I’m a natural gabber so I’d be talking to whatever people were next to me and a girl would be like, yeah, I think I’ve got like this sinus infection coming on, and I’d be like, so what part of your cycle are you at? So I could turn every conversation into a cycle conversation, which quickly got old for many people.

But what my experience was, was that although they all benefited from this information, not everybody got into actual charting. A lot of people in my life were enriched with the knowledge but they didn’t necessarily go all the way down the rabbit hole like I did. And they weren’t necessarily interested in putting everything in a charting book and charting all the time. They were happy with just being aware of the information and doing their thing. And that’s also great — because it enriched their lives in different ways. And I was able to see from that young age that everyone is not going to engage with this information in the same way, and that’s actually fine, because that’s not what it’s about.

And so if anyone has stalked me on different podcast episodes where I’ve been interviewed, you’ve probably heard me talk a lot about that kind of concept where I don’t actually think that every single woman should necessarily chart because it’s not necessarily the correct thing for everybody.

Chloe: Everyone is — actually, so it’s interesting that you share that perspective, because that’s certainly one of the perspectives that I bring in my mentoring, because I’ve already gone through those phases. And I always use the analogy — it’s a terrible analogy, but it fits — like if anyone has a brand new puppy and the puppy is yipping around and running around and chewing on everybody’s pants, you know, I went through that phase. I was the puppy. But now I’m like that old dog, you know, when your friends have this like older dog that’s sitting there and the kids are poking something in its ear and it’s just — and it’s not even bothered. That’s where I’m at now. And what I mean by that is that I don’t get as excited about everything because I see things long term as well. So I think that’s also a perspective that our practitioners benefit from — because I don’t get excited about individual charts.

I’ve had individual clients for a year, two years sometimes. And so I don’t get excited about individual charts because this is a process that we’re learning and each chart adds a layer to our understanding of our clients. It doesn’t define the client. Sometimes one chart is super wonky and strange but it doesn’t actually mean that the client has a serious issue — sometimes it just means that they were going through something weird or they were learning to chart. So we get to figure that out.

Lisa: So just wanted to kind of riff on that a little bit because I thought it was super interesting. And it makes perfect sense — of course you have that presence of mind because you’ve been working with clients for over a decade.

Chloe: Yeah, well, and so the funniest thing now is that my husband has heard me talk about everything for so long. Even when I found it, we were using it for birth control and I remember telling people, did you know you could only get pregnant for like a little bit? And people being like, that’s not true. And I’m like, no, it is. But my favorite thing — the conversations have shifted in our group a little bit — but my husband would hear me and be like, well, is she taking her temperature or like, how is she charting? Or well, you know, if the temp rises, then that’s the thing. Or if someone unfortunately would have a miscarriage, he’d be like, you know, you should really go see Chloe because I think she does something with that. Or like, well, they’re trying to get pregnant but they’re just using an app. Oh, I didn’t realize you were so involved in my career.

Lisa: Maybe we don’t realize how much we talk about it though, because my husband also — it’s like — because when we’re actually talking about it, I think one of my favorite episodes of the podcast is the one where I interviewed my husband. It’s like an oldie but a goodie. I’ll have to link to this one. There’s been one appearance of my husband on the podcast and it was funny because I was asking him these questions and he shared his experience — like by the time we met I had already taught women charting, not even just done it. So I was like, totally, this is what we’re doing, blah blah blah, and he’s just like, okay. But in his experience he was kind of like, well, I mean, we’re engaged, so if we got pregnant it would be — and I’m thinking, I didn’t know that was what you were thinking. Because he had never used it before, he was kind of just like, okay, whatever you say. But hey, I’m okay if there’s an accident, because he was kind of waiting for the accident — until obviously he realized there was no accidents because it actually worked.

Chloe: And then it also made me think about the random conversations that are occurring at his workplace. So he’ll come home and be like, could you send a book to so-and-so? And I’m like, oh sure. Because she was saying that her cycles are irregular and I was like, could it be PCOS? And he’s like, could it be — and again I’m like, what? It’s the same as you — okay, I guess you were listening and I guess I talk about this a lot.

Lisa: Yeah, well, and I love that he’s like a funny buffer of like — that person doesn’t have to take the full step of being evaluated, someone just sent them a resource that was again like taking away that risk and just making it a mini bite so they could take their own next step.

Chloe: Oh, I love that. Yeah.

Lisa: Well, and I’m in so deep — obviously training practitioners means you’re in deep. So when someone — I wonder now I’m going to have to do some episodes where I reach out to some new listeners or new followers, go back to some of those pill reality series episodes. Because if you just discovered it — like what I actually do hear from newer listeners is like, I just discovered you and there’s just so much content, so you can just binge forever. And then there’s the books — that’s a big learning curve. Like, oh my gosh, this is a lot of information that I didn’t know. So I think it’s great, it’s probably somewhat overwhelming depending on the person. But I do like to be able to be like, okay, before you get all excited, maybe just read the book, listen to a couple podcast episodes, sit with it for a bit. Because you’re going to go through all the motions about it too.

Chloe: Which is a big part of it. And man, thank goodness you’re here too. Again, when I was first Googling “short luteal phase” to get here, I found Toni Weschler’s book Taking Charge of Your Fertility, but then I was like, oh, do I have to be a master’s in public health to do this? Like do I have to go to nursing school? So I was so glad that people are sharing more information, and you get not the fast track but like what you actually want to do versus this side journey to get to where you actually want to be.

Lisa: Yeah. I mean, it is an interesting situation because when I’m speaking to people who have absolutely no idea — like at parties, if someone asks what do you do — it’s such a big thing. And as soon as I talk about it with anybody, male or female, all the tools fall out of their mouths right? So if you were to meet me in a social situation randomly, I don’t just talk about what I do as a — I just don’t do that. But when I’m asked, of course I’ll be honest and share. And I’m not hiding it or anything like that, I just don’t big up myself all the time. I’m just like a normal person. But when it does come up, then within five minutes I get an earful — whatever fertility challenges, menstrual issues — because everybody is either dealing with something, whether it’s just period stuff, challenges, birth control, fertility challenges. Those are very common and that comes up all the time.

I was trying to cancel a cleaning service and there was new management and I’m on the phone with the guy who is the new manager and he’s like, oh so you know, why did you cancel, just want to make sure it was okay, and what do you do for a living? And like, 45 minutes later I was sending him a book.

Chloe: Yeah, well, and I love too that people think that there’s only one way or like this is their situation, and I frequently forget that people also don’t love their periods like I do. Or if you don’t know that there’s this whole other perspective — and it’s not either-or, it’s like, and also here are these other things that are available that you can do. I love that you get to show up and kind of surprise people like that too.

Lisa: Yeah. Blowing minds, one vagina at a time. We’re changing the world.

Chloe: Well, I mean, please let that be on your tombstone — one vagina at a time. Yeah. My husband calls me the vagina whisperer. I love it.

Lisa: As we start wrapping up, I wanted to ask you a couple of questions. One is — now that you have been through the program, you had your goals, it sounds like you were able to hit a lot of those goals, which I’m thankful for with the program — so share with us kind of what your vision is, what you’re hoping to do, what your plans are, anything exciting that you have coming up.

Chloe: Yeah. In my head at this moment, what I’d love to do is start like a really basic course just going over anatomy and physiology for the female body — just because I feel like everyone’s like, yeah, I know that, and then every time I teach it they’re like, no way! I mean, like very wonderful, smart, educated people who would say that they’re very in tune and know a lot about their body. So I’d love to start out with this very easy, digestible basic anatomy and physiology course, and I think I could make it fun. And then from there — I realize now that I used to try to combine everything together of fertility, birth control, and hormonal health into very short two or three session courses. And then I realize now that they have to be separate — like fertility people only care about fertility, birth control people only care about birth control, hormonal health people who are not interested in either of those things pretty much only care about that. And there are three different audiences completely. So I’m still kind of sitting with how I want to work with that in the future.

Lisa: I love that. And one of the things that I love about having them as three separate avenues now is that the same person might use all three of them at some point. Like, no one’s trying to get pregnant forever. So I see how there’s still benefit to making those connections with people, so I can be a resource of support as they go through.

Chloe: Yeah.

Lisa: I love that. And it touches on a topic that comes up every time that we run the program with all of our practitioners, which is the niching conversation. And it’s always tough because fertility awareness work in and of itself is a niche. But when you are in today’s world and it’s very loud and busy, there are a lot more people talking about it — even though I still don’t think we’ve hit critical mass. There’s still a lot more people talking about it. You’re right because the fertility client is looking for something a bit different. From our perspective as educators a lot of it feels similar because it’s similar information just applied differently. But having worked with fertility clients, birth control clients, and then clients who are not trying to conceive or avoid but who have health issues — although the material is similar, you do focus on different aspects of it or gear it differently. And you emphasize certain pieces and deemphasize others. So it doesn’t mean that you would never have a conversation with a fertility client about birth control, but it would be de-emphasized.

So what would you say to the person who is tuning into all of these practitioner episodes because they’re kind of thinking about the program? What would you say to anybody who’s kind of on the fence, or who has some of those worries — even someone who’s in a similar situation that you are, like, well, I already took a training of one kind or another and I’m not sure what this would add?

Chloe: Well, it’s a nine-month program. And so two things really come to mind. On one hand, you absolutely set us up for success, and so the success is on our shoulders with whatever we do with it. But you have provided all of the tools. So no matter how we take that, I think by the end of the training, this is good, this is all you need to know — versus like, oh this is just one step and I need to get — I mean you can expand in any professional way, but this is a solid course. And the other thing that I was really surprised on was the timing. When I signed up, I didn’t know if it was the right time. And it’s a full year — I mean, close to, it’s a full nine-month gestation. So it was funny how we started this program in February, and then come April I was like, oh my gosh, I’m so busy with kids’ stuff right now, like maybe this wasn’t the best time. But it was. And I got it done, everything that I needed to be doing. I was showing up for calls. And then, you know, like summer hits and you’re like, ah, I don’t have childcare anymore. Ah, this is a hard time. But then you get through it. And then school started back up for my children and I was like, ah, this is a really busy time. But all that to say, life is always busy. So there’s never like a better time. This is it. It’s going to be okay. And you’re so interested in the material that it doesn’t matter, because like, I read self-help books for fun and like marketing and business books for fun. So like I eat this stuff up anyway. So it’s not like someone’s forcing me to learn how to fix my car.

Lisa: I love that. I’m very similar, Chloe, because I’m always reading. I abuse my Audible subscription — like the amount of books that I’ve read. And these days I’m actually not going for volume. These days I’m going for study — I read the same book because I’m listening to it and I’m busy and I’ve got the kids screaming and I’m washing something in the dishes or whatever while listening or getting ready. So I listen to the same book multiple times to study it. But I really resonate with what you said as well, because I’m the type of person who typically is always reading something, learning something. And so if you’re really interested in the subject matter — you raise a very important point. And obviously I’ve had a lot of conversations with practitioners and one of the biggest questions and concerns is — there’s no woman over 20 years old who just has just free time, just sitting around. Like there will never be a month or two in your life where there’s just nothing going on. And especially in my age group — as a 40-year-old, little kids, aging parents, business — lots of things happened in the last 12 months of my life that were not at all convenient whatsoever. But like you said, you make time, you make space for the things that are important. So I think that’s a really important piece of it.

And here we are in September as we’re recording this, it’ll come out in October likely, and you are actually almost done. So you could have delayed it and waited through — oh, this is a busy time, oh, it’ll be better next year — and then you would have gotten to next year and you still wouldn’t have done it.

Chloe: Absolutely. I could have had a thousand gremlins at any point in the program be like, oh, what if you don’t find anyone to work with? Oh, what if you don’t get that in on time? And then you realize like, oh, this is all in my head. And Lisa is so supportive, and so is her team. She has answered every question and made this all — like she wants you to succeed. I’m talking about you in a weird way but you want us to succeed too — like you would like us to graduate this program. So it’s only been a well-held space.

Lisa: Oh, thank you so much for saying that. We are literally obsessed. We have a small team and I meet with our coaches and we literally sit around and dream up ways to support our practitioners to finish. Because for us, this is obviously — like I always say, if this was about making money, I would just buy stuff off Alibaba and resell it on Amazon. That’s what I would do. This is a much deeper vision and goal that I’ve had since I started this, even since before I started the podcast. But since I started the podcast and started writing the books, you know, initially it was like I just want women to know about this. And now having been in this field for over two decades, seeing how the field itself has changed, seeing how the field has really just exploded — but even though the field has exploded, even though there’s way more educators out there, way more women know about it, we still have not made a dent in critical mass. Like that’s — it’s really humbling if you actually think about what I’m saying to you. Because some of the listeners were probably in like elementary school when I was first learning this stuff, right? Like you couldn’t just go online. There was no online, okay? There was no Facebook. There was no Instagram. Like I’m old, okay? There was none of this stuff. There was no smartphones. There was a library and a spreadsheet, there was paper that you printed and charted on, and nobody knew about this stuff. And even though we are now at this huge critical mass, there’s still such a ways to go. So I’m still very hopeful. I don’t say that to be negative, but my visions and goals have changed because now I actually truly believe we already have made a dent and we can, we will continue to. So now my mission has changed. Now I’m creating an army. And we want you to graduate, right? We want you to graduate, we want you to get your certification so that you can go out there and literally change the world one vagina at a time.

Chloe: Yeah. And not to get political, but I’m from the United States and it kind of seems like reproductive rights and freedom are always on the table. And so if I could do anything to remove some of that fear and to only instead increase body autonomy and knowledge and wisdom, so people felt like they had a little bit more sense of control and power in their own lives — and I’m so glad that all of your podcasts exist and that we get to be people that are on the field helping.

Lisa: And it makes me think of like with Real Food for Fertility — Lily and I, I can’t speak for her exactly, but I can say that I, when I think about that book, I always love this — I romanticize this idea. Like when I was doing more group coaching programs, I always had this special place in my heart for like the 20-year-olds, the 20-somethings, the women who are at that young, young age who have this amazing opportunity to have a very different experience of menstruation, of reproduction, of birth control. And when you’re that age, you have the opportunity, if you learn this information up front, you can make real choices.

Now, I’m not trying to salt the wound because I also know on the flip side it’s really difficult for women who discover this information sometimes when they’re in the 40s. And I think regardless of when you discover it, whether you’re somewhere in between and even past — because I’ve had clients who had literally already went through menopause and then they discovered it — you can always, always do something with it. And you can always find ways to make your own life better. But I just think to myself, you know, with that book, there’s a lot of women who, if they have this information at a young age, they have the opportunity to potentially never need IVF. That’s not a guarantee — so please don’t send your lawyers at me — but I’m just saying, with this information we have the ability to significantly improve our cycles and our hormones in a way that is meaningful, scientifically proven to minimize the risk of other things. It doesn’t mean you would not have any struggles, but you could potentially minimize that to a huge degree. So yeah.

Chloe: And I love the idea of just normalizing the female body in general. And so yeah, I think all of the education that anyone can get at any age is spot on. I’ve had clients who’ve had procedures that they regretted, that they realized afterwards they might not have needed, had they just waited a period of time, gathered more information and taken a different approach. And the surgery is still there as an option. So like waiting is not — unless you’re bleeding out on the table right now, you could typically wait.

Lisa: Absolutely. Well, Chloe, this has been just fantastic. I’ve enjoyed this conversation. I feel like we’ve meandered in lots of different places. So thanks so much for holding it with me. Please share with us where our audience and listeners can go to find you, where you are in the world specifically in case anyone can benefit from your work in person, so just all the things.

Chloe: Yeah, the best place to find me is my website, which is www.chloeshealingarts.com. And I’m trying so hard to get a presence on Instagram, but I love Facebook because I love writing and being a little silly and doing my goofy little drawings. So my Facebook — if you Google Chloe VanLente on Facebook, you’ll find my page and then it will show up as my business page right there.

Lisa: Awesome. Well, we will link all the places and follow Chloe, help her build up her socials. And thank you so much for being here. This was a lot of fun.

Chloe: Yeah, thank you.