Getting Pregnant as a Same-Sex Couple (Episode 325)

Full Transcript: Episode 325

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: This is the Fertility Friday Podcast, episode number 325. Welcome to the Fertility Friday Podcast, your source for information about the fertility awareness method and all things fertility. I’m your host, Lisa Hendrickson-Jack. I’m the author of The Fifth Vital Sign and the Fertility Awareness Mastery Charting Journal.

I’m a certified fertility awareness educator and holistic reproductive health practitioner with nearly 20 years of experience teaching women to connect to their fifth vital sign through menstrual cycle charting, balancing hormonal health, and optimizing the menstrual cycle without hormones. I’m outspoken about hormonal birth control and its impact on fertility and overall health, because you have the right to know how your body works and how artificial hormones disrupt that natural process.

I host live coaching programs to help you achieve optimal fertility and health, because it’s important to have healthy menstrual cycles regardless of whether or not you want to have babies. I’m also a wife and mother of two beautiful boys — I know, I know, I’m a busy girl, but I managed to fit it all in. This podcast is designed to empower you to take full control of your cycles, your fertility, and your overall health, and I’m so excited that you’re here with us today.

Today I’m sharing an episode with Deborah Bagg, who came on the show to share about her fertility journey. Being part of a same-sex partnership, Deborah’s journey to her fertility, pregnancy, and her now three-year-old was a lot different, let’s say, than your average heteronormative couple. So today we really get into it and talk about what that process looked like.

You’ll hear me asking tons of questions — I was thinking of you throughout the episode because I really wanted to help paint a picture of what this really looks like for couples who are going through this process. And if you tuned into this episode specifically to learn more about some of the challenges that same-sex couples face on this fertility journey, then you will really appreciate what we delved into today. So without further ado, let’s jump into today’s episode.

I’m really excited to welcome my guest, Deborah Bagg, to the show. Originally from South Africa, Deborah graduated from — I’m going to say that wrong — Naropa? That’s right, Naropa University, with a Master’s in Somatic Psychotherapy in 2005. She’s a licensed clinical mental health counselor.

Her therapy practice is a multi-disciplinary approach to health and wellness, using flower essences and somatic awareness in supporting each client’s unique process. She is a doula, a women’s wisdom circle leader, online educator, and yoga teacher, and I’ll let her talk a little bit more about her Spirit Shop, which she co-owns — is it in Brooklyn?

Deborah Bagg: It’s in Brooklyn, yes.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Yeah, it’s in Brooklyn. So I’ll let you tell the listeners a little bit more about that. In today’s episode we’re going to be focusing on fertility, but from the lens of LGBTQIA relationships — some of the specific challenges that come up when you are in a relationship with somebody and you don’t have — I think in one of my previous episodes, I’ll link to this podcast, with Rose Yewchuk, she talked about what you need to have to make a baby, so you need eggs, sperm, and a uterus.

So when you don’t have one of those components, we’re going to talk about how to overcome some of those challenges, and how this conversation is different when you don’t have a heteronormative relationship. So welcome to the show, Deborah.

Deborah Bagg: Thank you so much for having me.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, thank you for being here — such an important conversation. And we were talking a little bit before we started recording, and one of the challenges in this space for myself, as a fertility awareness educator — and I think most FAM educators have some degree of challenge in this space — is that, for example, when I’m working with clients, it’s typically for a reason: it’s typically to get pregnant or to avoid pregnancy.

Which means that I often gear my podcast and episodes to that client who happens to often be in a heterosexual relationship, so it makes my podcast in many ways less accessible for women who don’t fit into that mold. So I’d love to hear a bit about your experience, and just — I think we can jump right into what it’s been like for you, and also some of the challenges even in just getting information that is geared to your experience.

Deborah Bagg: Right, so, you know, when I started this journey — I actually was married to a man for a while, and then I’m now currently married to a woman. And so when I thought about getting pregnant — I actually never had to think about getting pregnant in a same-sex relationship, so when that became something that I wanted to do, my whole focus of how do I make this happen shifted, because I really felt like I was starting at zero.

So thus began my journey of figuring out — just like you said, with the person you mentioned, I can’t remember her name — but where do I get, where does sperm come into this equation? And, you know, everybody’s in my community’s experience is like, you’re starting off with one of those components missing, regardless. So that’s an interesting place to begin, where — in a heterosexual relationship maybe there might be fertility issues, but you’re not starting off with the baseline that you don’t have one of those things.

I’ve listened to so many of your podcasts, but there is something around — even though the process, maybe with somebody in a heterosexual relationship, might be doing IUIs, might be doing IVF — just a shift in language of the LGBTQ community, like seeing those letters in the heading of, how do we do it, is helpful. It gives us a place to get more information. I guess it clues me into where I would direct my attention.

For me, it started all the way from the beginning of where do we get sperm from. And this is also an interesting choice when trying to figure out how to have a baby — do you want to go with a known donor, do you want to go with an unknown donor? For me, I wanted to go with somebody that was a known donor — that was important to me. People have very different opinions and feelings about it, but I really wanted to know the person.

And so then you have to find somebody and ask that person, which was interesting, because I kind of had to scan the men in my life and think about what are the qualities of a person that you want to bring in, bring a life into it with. The long and the short of it is, my wife at the time, she said to me, “How about this guy?” and shows me this photograph of this beautiful man, and I was like, “Oh yeah, he looks great, I’ll take him, that sounds great.”

And she’s like, “Well, he lives in Berlin, he’s Swedish, and I haven’t spoken to him for a few years, but we used to be really close in college — I spent one semester together with him.” And so I said to her, well, just text him, find his number, or Facebook him. She had his number, and just said hi, began this kind of flirtation, and she wrote to him, and it was a Wednesday.

And then he wrote back to her immediately and said, “Oh my gosh, Shanna” — that’s my wife — “I’m so happy to hear from you, I’m actually going to be in New York on Friday.” And we’re like, “Oh my, okay, this is amazing.” So he invited us to this party at his friend’s house, which wasn’t far from our home, and just before anything, right, they were just literally saying hi and seeing what can happen here.

And at the party, he said to us, completely out of the blue, that he feels like it’s his destiny to give sperm to a lesbian couple one day, so if we ever wanted children, he would be happy to provide that for us, if we were ever interested.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: So that just happened, and you hadn’t — that just —

Deborah Bagg: Yes, that just happened. So our minds were blown completely — we thought maybe, because he was a little drunk. Either way, we then invited him to come over for dinner the next night, and I invited my sister, so he could see us as a nice Jewish family, and we officially proposed to him. And he said, “Yeah, I feel like what I said to you last night — I felt like that was my destiny, and I would be happy to go on this journey with you.”

So we got pretty lucky in terms of that happening, but I can tell you, from that moment, it took a solid year for me to work out the logistics — from that moment to getting pregnant was a year, because these things take much more time than I ever imagined, because you’re dealing with sperm banks, and where even to put the sperm that you’re going to take. I live in New York City, so you kind of start with Google.

And getting pregnant, as I was saying to you before the call, can be such a private experience. And I even know, from my Jewish roots, it’s a superstitious experience — you don’t actually talk about your process until you’re after your first trimester, because there’s a lot of superstition, which makes it kind of interesting when you need help. So I had this kind of almost spiritual, religious conflict, and, who do I talk to that will keep it really private, and at the same time really craving information around how to do this?

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, you mentioned that you did get pregnant, so you have a three-year-old son?

Deborah Bagg: I have a three-year-old, yes.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: So was this three years ago, or —

Deborah Bagg: Well, that was three — yeah.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Yeah, okay. So when you mentioned that it took a year after you first kind of proposed this to conceive — was that when you had your son?

Deborah Bagg: No, that was a year — that was, so I guess it was four years ago, sorry. So it was four years ago that it took a year to conceive. It took a year because we started out the journey trying to figure out how to do IUIs, and what is an IUI.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Okay, so tell me, then, for the listeners as well, how the process worked. So, because he doesn’t live in the same country —

Deborah Bagg: He doesn’t live in the same country, and he was visiting for a short time — you had this conversation —

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: So, yeah, I mean, first of all, I think your experience is incredible, and I would imagine that not everybody has it so seamless, where you have someone in mind and they’re just so excited to jump in and be part of it. I would imagine that for some couples it would be a little bit potentially harder, or just take a little bit longer to find somebody, and or potentially have to consider going the sperm donor route.

He was willing — like, best-case scenario, he’s willing, able, except that he doesn’t live in your country — so what needs to happen in order to make a baby, then, when you have that situation?

Deborah Bagg: Right. So, and this was — I could back up for a moment — I actually asked two other people before him, before I even knew who he was, and one said no, and the other one said yes but was pretty flaky, so we called that quest off. So there was some — it wasn’t completely seamless — but I would say it was pretty easy, considering.

So basically, then, what happens is that we had to fly him over again, and go to where, at the time, it was called Manhattan Cryobank, and he has to provide sperm for us, which also, I can tell you, was interesting, because from his perspective — because he’s gay too — at the clinic he has to ejaculate, and there was no gay porn there. So even that was part of our whole process, and we were joking about it.

He had his phone with him, but he did actually speak to the cryobank, saying, you guys gotta get with 2016 — whatever it was at the time — it was all just heterosexual porn. So that was interesting — this is where the little signs make you feel either included, or like this isn’t the place for me.

So he provided the sperm, and then — at the time I didn’t know that you could do IUIs with midwives, so I went to a clinic. And that experience for me was just not what I had hoped for or wanted. I spoke to the person that did the IUI, and I asked if there were any ideas that she had around increasing my fertility, and I said I do vaginal steaming, and she didn’t know what that was, and she kind of looked at me oddly. So that was off-putting for me.

But whatever — I don’t know, did I have any other options? Do you kind of just go with it?

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, so, yeah — when you’re in the stage of making it happen, were you working with your doctors and your midwife to determine that an IUI was the best option, or was it the only option, or what were those types of options described to you? Was there an option to do home insemination, if you chart your cycles and you know when you have your mucus — did you have those types of conversations?

Deborah Bagg: I wasn’t working with any — I didn’t have a midwife at the time or an OB, really. I was pretty much, from the beginning, I just looked up clinics and cold called and went in and spoke to the OB-GYN, and she did tell me, she was like, you should start with — they had a fertility thing, so they’re like, let’s start with IUI. Nobody told me that you could do it at home — I thought you only had to do it in a clinic.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, so, yeah — looking back now, for someone who’s kind of at the beginning, like you were back then — now that you probably know more about the options, would you have gone the same route, or do you think —

Deborah Bagg: No — well, yeah, so what happened with that situation is, I actually got pregnant the first IUI I did with them, and then I miscarried. And so, two more times after that, both times doing these IUIs — it didn’t feel — I don’t know, I didn’t like the experience, I just didn’t like it. And so after the miscarriage, and then two more times, we ran out of sperm.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: I didn’t mean to throw you off the call.

Deborah Bagg: No, that’s right — so we ran out of sperm, so then we had to call our donor, and — that process, after the miscarriage and running out of sperm — was, this is why I said to you it took a year for me to get pregnant again. This was part of the experience.

We looked into having him ship it over, and you’re not — internationally, you actually can’t, you’re not allowed to ship specimens, they call it. So we flew him over again, and for the couple of months before that, we actually asked him, and he was very willing, and he’s the most wonderful person — he wanted to up his fertility game, so he’s like, I’ll take maca, I’ll wear loose underwear, and he said he’ll stop drinking and smoking. He really was on board with the process, and while he was improving his health, he felt like a responsibility in some way, which was amazing.

I was trying to just figure out what other options I had, because I didn’t like the clinic experience — it’s very not me. And I went on to one of the Facebook groups, and I was Googling LGBTQ pregnancy, and I found out that you could do IUIs at home with a midwife, and so that’s when I found this wonderful midwife named Shira. And then a few months later we did an at-home IUI, which was such a wonderful experience — so warm and supportive and caring, one-on-one — and we did it at home, and I got pregnant the first time with her.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Okay, I have a lot of logistical questions that I think the listeners — so, the question, based on what you just said, you did a home IUI, so IUI stands for intrauterine insemination — so were you doing an insemination where they put the sperm at the cervix, or did they dilate your cervix and put the sperm into the uterus, at home?

Deborah Bagg: So she went through my cervix, and she didn’t have to dilate it, because it was open — I was about to ovulate. So once I got a positive OPK — I was doing OPK, I was doing cervical mucus, I was charting, I was doing all the things, but to be honest, the temperature charting caused me such insane anxiety that I ended up — I don’t know why it did, but it gave me so much anxiety that I stopped doing the temping, and I just did the OPKs and the cervical mucus.

So when I got a positive OPK, around 12 hours later she came over, and she inserts this very long, thin syringe — not pointy — through the cervix and into my uterus, and it doesn’t hurt.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Okay, so it was intrauterine. And then, if you were to do it in a doctor’s office, they do stuff to the sperm — they do a sperm wash, and they select — so did she do all of that, or did she just —

Deborah Bagg: Yes, you still do a sperm wash, because you have to store it somewhere, so my donor stored it in the cryobank. And so, the process — I’m trying to get pregnant this time around, the second time around, and now that I’ve been through it, I don’t have nearly as much anxiety and all the other feelings that come with it, but it’s a lot of rushing around, a lot of timing, a lot of hoping people are picking up the phone, and making sure that the tank is available, and you’re driving into the city and hoping there’s parking. It’s kind of a stressful experience.

So I had to go get the tank, bring it to my house, and then we defrost it at the house, and then you do it — 12 hours — and then you have to figure out the timing, which is also kind of interesting.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: So these are all the logistical questions — so when you have a donor, because obviously if he gives a sample, if you’re not using it right away, then you’re going to have to store it. So, that I understand — when he gave the sample, one of the questions I had was, because he had to fly in again — he lived in Germany, which is obviously not the same thing as Brooklyn, and you’re unable to ship, so he had to actually physically be here in order to provide this sample.

So when they took the first sample, did the doctors have conversations with you about how much sperm they would take from him, and how many times they would have him ejaculate — were there conversations like that? Because almost as an afterthought I thought, well, if you ran out, maybe they should have taken some more.

Deborah Bagg: Totally, yes. Well, this is a hard part — because also he only had a week of holiday, he’s a principal at a school, so he only had a very certain amount of time that he could be here. And you can’t ejaculate for — it was 48 hours before, so we had to space it two days. So he did it the first day, then we had to wait two days, and then he’s only here for eight days or something, so you can only get a certain amount — you can’t get more, and the quality decreases.

I also learned this because, before we flew him out a second time — because the first time we ran out of sperm, so we had to fly him out again — the time before flying out again, I flew to Germany, and I was like, I’m just going to try this myself, because my cycle was very regular, so I knew when I would be ovulating. And that was just a big old joke — I mean, we did it, but it just didn’t work, and we did it every day, because I was like, let’s just do it every day and see what happens.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Oh god, what you mean is you went to Germany and you tried the old-fashioned way, like the birds and the bees — you had sex?

Deborah Bagg: No, birds and bees — I mean, we’ll get into the details — I had him ejaculate into a small, kind of like what you would use instead of a tampon —

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Yes, a cervical cap? I would have thought — was it a cervical cap, or was it — what’s it called — a menstrual cup?

Deborah Bagg: It was a cervical cap, so it’s a little wider and flatter.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Okay, just so I’m understanding, because I want to clarify — so you had him ejaculate into cervical caps, you basically did an at-home insemination timed with your cycle during the time that you were there, and in that case it didn’t work out?

Deborah Bagg: No, did not work out.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: And then you began to suspect that there could be — because you mentioned that you had conversations about doing different things to improve the sperm quality — was that kind of the reason?

Deborah Bagg: Yeah, it was. And he was on board for that. And then, the second time that he came back to the States, his sperm quality had improved, and the doctors told us that the motility and the — whatever they check for — was better. So that was good news, plus it obviously was better, because I got pregnant the first time that we tried at the midwife, at home.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, and I wanted to zone in on that a little bit, because I don’t know that everyone listening would know that could even be a possibility — to actually have an IUI procedure done in your home. I’m guessing that wouldn’t necessarily be an available service with a medical doctor, depending on the doctor, but in your case you were able to do that with the midwife — is this something that most midwives would do, or was this something in particular that your midwife did?

Deborah Bagg: It was not what most midwives would do — it would have to be a midwife that’s available to travel and do it at home. Like my birth midwife — I had a home birth — she doesn’t do that, she only does home births. But my midwife Shira, she’s a birth midwife in a hospital, but on the side she does at-home IUI. So you would have to find specifically a midwife that does that procedure and knows how to do it at home — it’s a specialty, not every midwife does it.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Yeah, just because I thought I would ask about that, because I would imagine that option may not necessarily be available in that way. I think that, depending on the sperm and the situation, it is possible for many couples to have the ability to do what you did in Germany, which is to do the home insemination via cervical cap — that’s something you could do if you had access to sperm and were charting when you were in your fertile window. But in terms of having a medical professional do an IUI procedure at home, that would be a little bit different.

One of the other questions I had was related to the storage — you mentioned the sperm was stored, and then you had to defrost it, and you had 24 hours to use it for the IUI. So when they’re storing the sperm — he provides a sample, you mentioned they do the sperm wash — do they do that before they freeze it?

Deborah Bagg: Yes, before they freeze it.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Okay, so they — because the sperm need to be capacitated, meaning there’s a whole chemical reaction that has to happen with the sperm before they’re able to fertilize an egg, which is part of the reason why they have to prepare the sperm prior to insemination — so that is all done upon freezing?

Deborah Bagg: Yes, they do that before, so then you don’t have to do anything but defrost it in your hand.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Okay, well, and what’s interesting as well — I’ve done a number of episodes related to egg donation, and I’ve interviewed different women who are part of different sperm banks and things like that, who talked a little bit about their procedures. One of the things we found really interesting is, when you’re in a situation where you don’t have all of the components — egg, sperm, uterus — it makes logical sense to first go to people that you know, whether it’s a family member or a friend, if you have a good relationship and are able to organize that.

But what’s interesting is that, when I was speaking to some of these women who operate these egg banks, is that often the donor — the person that they’re looking for — may not necessarily meet the strict guidelines of these organizations, because, from the egg donor bank perspective, they need someone this age, they have all these requirements, because they want to make sure that they’re giving the highest chance that the procedures are going to be successful.

So I just wanted to zone in on that for a moment, because that’s another challenge you wouldn’t necessarily think of right off the bat — it’s hard enough to find the person, and get them right, and then realize they have an issue with their sperm quality.

Deborah Bagg: Right, totally. Yeah, I mean, people have asked me — I’ve been trying to get pregnant again, and it’s taking me way longer than the first time, and some people have suggested, why don’t you try a different sperm? And you get attached — I feel very attached to my person, and he’s not 20 anymore, he’s in his later 30s, and I guess there’s some reality to quality of sperm as you get older, just the same as eggs, but this is the man for me, so I don’t feel like I would want to compromise.

And it’s also something — I have friends that are also trying, and they have two more vials of sperm left, and then it’s done, because it’s from a donor sperm and they’re not going to donate anymore. And then that’s the whole emotional component of what is it like to choose a different donor — because what are you basing that choice on, especially when it’s not a known donor, you’re going on some kind of gut instinct — it’s interesting, how do you make that decision of why you choose this vial over that vial.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, yeah, it’s just something that really came to mind afterwards, because one of the things I talk about on the podcast a lot is how there’s this huge issue with sperm, and there are so many men that do have poor sperm parameters, and you wouldn’t know by looking at somebody.

Deborah Bagg: Right, it’s unexpected — because it’s hard —

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: I could just imagine how challenging it could be to find a willing donor, and the conversations you’d have to have. And I interviewed a disability lawyer who talked about the written legal agreements that should be in place, so that it’s very clear about the whole process and how it’s going to happen, and when the child comes into the world, how that’s going to work — all those types of things. So after you go through all of that, to find another challenge — I mean, I think that’s something you wouldn’t necessarily think about right off the bat.

Deborah Bagg: Absolutely. And then, working with a known donor, you also have all the questions around what place you want this person to have in your child’s life, how much do you want to share about that, who is this person. Something I can say that we were surprised to experience, when we had Skye, our son, was that more people than I thought would often ask who’s going to be the father figure, or the masculine figure, in our child’s life — which was always somewhat offensive, and something that, obviously, if you were in a heterosexual relationship, nobody would ask.

But we had that come up a lot, and also people struggling — and I totally understand, it’s a different language — people struggling with, who’s the father, or is Jonas the dad — the language is kind of tricky. And even my wife and I haven’t totally figured out what language we want to use for him — who is he — we call him our donor, but I don’t know if he is that — but there’s people who stumble with who’s the father, who’s the dad.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Yeah, well, it’s not entirely new territory — I mean, we’re recording this in 2019 — but with that being said, I think that it is new territory, and I think we’re all still — because you mentioned your son is three — you’re still working on how to talk about this and how to identify, because this is outside of what we are typically familiar with, I guess.

But it’s interesting, because we live in a world where this is the reality, and there are couples — heterosexual couples — who have a cis male and a cis female and didn’t use either their own eggs or their own sperm. So there are situations where you have those couples that fall into the heteronormative situation, similar to yours, where those types of questions wouldn’t be asked — and also, it’s not assumed that something happened out of the ordinary to make that child.

When you’re looking at a same-sex couple, there’s a little — I think there’s a little bit more — I even have questions when I see pregnant same-sex couples, like, I wonder how they did it, what was their process, is it a known donor or not, how long does it take, do they do it in clinic or at home, what’s their age — there are so many questions I have myself, of what people’s experiences were like, because you’re coming in inherently with a challenge, right from the beginning — it’s challenging.

Well, and did you encounter — so it sounded, from the way you described your experience, that it wasn’t necessarily an issue finding a clinic — so once you had the man, and he was willing to provide the sperm, it didn’t sound like there was an issue getting a clinic to store it and do the things you needed to do. Was that a challenge, or did you find it fairly straightforward finding a clinic who would do this for you?

Deborah Bagg: I found it pretty straightforward, but I can also tell you — that was four years ago, and I feel like there are more clinics that have popped up since then. And the rigmarole — I’ve just called a few, out of curiosity, for the second time around, just to see what the options are — and mine was pretty straightforward, they didn’t even do blood tests, really, I don’t think they went too heavily into my fertility. But now I’m finding that the fertility clinics want to do all the things and test everything, and it’s really, really expensive — more expensive than I could have ever imagined.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: So they want to test you, are they testing the donor — all that kind of stuff — do you have to go through, do they have to do all the testing before they’re going to do the procedure?

Deborah Bagg: Yes, because they have protocols — it’s kind of like how hospitals are. I called to just see, can you just do an IUI, do you just do the sonograms, check the follicles — and then they do a sonogram instead of the OPK, that’s how they go about it in the clinics — they test to see what percentage of fullness the egg follicle is. I don’t know exactly how it works, I’m sure you do, but it’s just like more doctor interventions, I feel, now — or maybe just the place that I’ve called. But that’s why I just wanted to work with a midwife — I just wanted to text her and say, “Hey, I got a positive OPK, can you come over in 18 hours?” It’s so much more pleasant for me.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, what’s different, to me — what strikes me — is that you’re being treated as a fertility client, when this is a different situation. You’re not getting the IUI because you’re in a heterosexual relationship and not getting pregnant — you’re getting an IUI because this is how you’re going to get pregnant.

Deborah Bagg: Yes. So then it makes sense, I mean — on the one hand it sort of makes sense to do the workup, but on the other hand, regardless of what it says on the workup, you’re still going to do the procedure.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Exactly, and that’s what I even struggled with, with the first clinic experience — I felt like already going in there was a problem, do you know what I mean? Even because you’re dealing with a feeling of lack — because you’re going to a fertility clinic, as opposed to a midwife coming to do the same procedure — there’s just a different feeling to it. And so, before they’ll take the donor sperm, you have to do all of that — is that what you mean?

Deborah Bagg: Yes, interesting — whereas at home, with my midwife, I do whatever, just do it because you want to. It would be different — I don’t know that.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: So again, because everyone’s experience is different — so if the donor was somebody that you knew, and if the donor was in your same city, that’s super convenient, but it could potentially be done differently, in that you could just use the fresh sperm. But if you’re using fresh sperm, it’s not washed, so you’d have to do it differently — you’d have to wash it — because when you’re not using that medical technology, what happens is the sperm become capacitated, and that chemical reaction that allows the sperm to fertilize an egg occurs as they pass through your cervical fluid.

So then you wouldn’t be able to bypass it with the IUI. But my point is that different situations would warrant different options.

Deborah Bagg: Yeah.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: But in your case, you can’t bypass the need for the clinic, because since your donor is across the world, you have to make sure that you have a place to store it.

Deborah Bagg: Yes. Well, the storage place is not a clinical experience — the storage place is literally, they wash it, they check that it’s good quality, and they stay freezing and stored for you.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: So, are you able to just do that, or do you have to go through the clinic to have that done?

Deborah Bagg: You can just do that — but if you go through a fertility clinic, so if I had to do my IUI at a fertility clinic, they’re going to want to check a whole range of things — it’s clinical, so they want to know the numbers, they want to do the blood test, the sonograms, all that stuff.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Okay, so theoretically, I just want to make sure I understand — in order to have them store the sperm, you don’t have to do all the rigmarole, you could just contact a sperm storage facility and they would organize that?

Deborah Bagg: They have slight rigmarole for him — he has to get all STD testing, he does have to get a certain level of testing. If he had any STDs, they wouldn’t store it. So there’s requirements for him, he has to do testing in order to have the sperm stored.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: And so, theoretically, does this mean that, in your specific situation, you could theoretically have his sperm stored and bypass the clinic, and just do the IUI with the midwife?

Deborah Bagg: Yes, that’s a theoretical possibility — but if you want to do the IUI with an actual fertility clinic, of course they’re going to have certain requirements and do certain types of testing.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: So in order to have the clinic do the IUI, you have to follow whatever the clinic’s requirements are in order to get that done. And in your case, you found it to be very expensive — more expensive than you were anticipating?

Deborah Bagg: Yes, very expensive — like, the difference — one of the clinics that I called, my at-home IUI, every time, my midwife charges 300 dollars to come over. If you go to a clinic for the exact same procedure — and you’re also going to have less attention in some ways, because I just do it, and then you have to leave within 15 minutes — it was 700 dollars a time. So it’s almost double, and then some, for the same procedure.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: And then you’re doing two inseminations, right? So every time I do it, I do two — so that’s 600, as opposed to — and then if you’re doing it at a clinic — the one that I called, it was fourteen hundred dollars, and that’s actually for the IUI every time. You do an insemination twice — does that mean they put it in twice, over two days, or something?

Deborah Bagg: Yeah, you do — depends on how you want to work your timing — you do it at either 12 or 18 hours, and then again at 24 hours.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Okay, and that’s after you have the positive OPK?

Deborah Bagg: Yes, yes.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Okay, I mean, it’s definitely a completely different experience in terms of — so one of the things we touched on at the beginning of the show is how basically this whole world of fertility — I think it’s changing a little bit, to some degree, but it’s really geared towards cis men, cis women, heterosexual relationships. The language, the procedures, the whole thing is geared to a very specific client — so for someone who doesn’t fit into that mold, or a couple that is not part of that heteronormative box, what are some of the ways — even for practitioners who are listening, or individuals who are looking at embarking on this journey themselves — what are some of the particular challenges, in terms of the language and the way that things are done? Do you have any suggestions for how clinics and health professionals in these areas could make their services more accessible?

Deborah Bagg: I think there’s something — it kind of reminds me of the LGBTQ flag. I was speaking to a friend who works with homeless kids, and what they said is that when they walk past businesses that have the LGBTQ rainbow flag in the window, there’s something about just seeing that flag — like a little sticker — that puts them at ease, that that place is inviting. And I kind of feel like it’s the same in this journey — for myself, it’s not that we’ve spoken about it, like the procedure is the same as a heterosexual couple, but seeing inclusive language puts me at a different level of ease, where I don’t feel I need to explain my relationship, and I can already come in knowing that the practitioner has a level of inclusivity or awareness of language — it’s incredibly helpful.

So, even on podcasts like this, I would often scroll to see, where’s the letters about same-sex fertility — and that makes me feel like the population, the community that I’m in, feels seen and heard and included, even though the procedures are pretty much the same. I know, I checked another clinic yesterday, and they had just a little scroll that said “supporting LGBTQ families,” and I was like, oh, that’s so nice, that feels good, and that feels like I can walk in there and not have to explain — I mean, I know we’re in 2019, nearly 2020, but the legacy of homophobia is actually deeply ingrained in the collective culture, and you’re just not sure exactly who you’re going to get.

I mean, even our current GP refers to me as my wife’s friend — she introduced my wife to them, like, “and her friend” — and my wife’s like, “No, my wife” — and she referred to me as her friend again. And, you know, she’s very nice to me, but it’s still — those things — I mean, I don’t even see the GP as much, but it doesn’t make you really want to entrust your process to somebody, wanting your body.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, absolutely, I think there’s certainly room for education and sensitivity in this area. And what would you say for practitioners that are open but feel less comfortable — whenever this topic comes up in social situations, in my personal life, people will say things like, “Well, I don’t know what to say,” and, “I don’t know why they keep adding letters” — people say all these kinds of rude things — but I think it’s not the same as the conversations around race, but as a Black woman I’ve certainly had people go, “Can I say Black?” — they get kind of weird about it — but the thing about it is, if someone’s asking, it means they’ve thought about it, and they’re trying.

Deborah Bagg: Yeah, yeah, totally.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: So I guess the question out of that is, for people and professionals who are aware and want to make their practices more inclusive, or want to find ways to adjust their language — what advice would you have in those respects?

Deborah Bagg: Yeah, I think that’s such a great question. And nobody’s perfect, and I still fumble and get confused too — and I think any person that just says, even with my dog, “How do I refer to Jonas?” — asking questions, as opposed to just assuming, is always good. Or even just being in the humility of, “I don’t quite know exactly how to talk about this, can you help me with the pronouns, can you help me with the language?” — that just makes for a much more human experience, like we’re figuring it out together.

And I think nobody has to be perfect — even with our GP, referring to me as a friend, and then I say, “No, that’s actually my wife,” and if she would just use the word “wife,” that would be helpful — the second time around, we can all just move on from the conversation. I think people can take the pressure off themselves and enter into more of a curiosity, or just a question.

And also, even with you and us, when we’re talking, you’re like, “Yeah, I mostly — most of my language is geared to heteronormative people, because that’s most of my population” — and I’m like, yeah, I totally get that, and I love listening to your stuff, and this podcast would maybe be for a gay couple to listen to — that’s cool, you also can’t please everybody.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, and I was thinking — so you live in New York, it may not be the most progressive place in the world, but certainly not the least, generally progressive. But what about — so then, for the listener who potentially tuned into this episode because they are on this journey, and they don’t have all of those components, and they live in a small town somewhere — one of the things we didn’t talk about really today is that you live in the United States.

I live in Canada — we have a whole different world between countries, because in our country we don’t pay sperm donors, so men aren’t necessarily incentivized to donate sperm. So it’s possible that some couples in Canada may just not have the option, even if they wanted to do the sperm donor route, for different people in different places. And also, if you live in a small town somewhere, where it’s not New York, then you have to access services from a provider that’s not necessarily even open.

So, do you have anything to say for couples who are in those situations, where it’s not ideal, and they’re not in a place that’s really open and accepted — how would you negotiate that, knowing that you may not be accepted?

Deborah Bagg: Right, I mean, it’s honestly hard enough as it is, having access, and stressful, and confusing. And I think, if people can do their best to reach out to other people who have had this similar experience, that’s the best way to actually feel supported in the process — if that means looking on Facebook groups, or going to community centers, where you can at least find somebody who’s been through a similar experience, to help guide you through — that would be really helpful.

And also, when I did the clinic, the first time around, when I did get pregnant, she only told me — there was a small thing, but it was something — she told me I could just lay down, she’d do the IUI, and I could lay down for five minutes and then go. And five minutes felt so wrong to me — I felt like I needed to lay down with my legs up for 30 minutes, so I had to ask for permission to stay in the room longer, and then I pushed it even a little bit more.

You also have to find a way to do your research on what feels best in your body, and then ask for it and hope for the best. When I do it at home with my midwife, I stay with my legs up for two hours — I lay down and don’t move for two hours, so everything can just sink back up and in. It’s challenging, but I think doing as much research as you can, and finding people who have been through it, makes you feel less alone — that’s why we do podcasts like this, so somebody can just listen and hear a process, and hopefully it’s useful in some way.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Yeah, I think that’s really important, because one of the things you mentioned was that when you speak about your story, you often find that people reach out to you and say, “Thank you for sharing your story — this is something my partner and I have been looking into, and we just didn’t know how this would look, we just didn’t know how this could possibly work.” And hearing about the stories of how other couples have made it work, in different situations, and hearing a little bit more about what this really looks like can be really helpful.

So I’m glad that you came on the show today and shared so openly of your own experience, to really shed some light on some of the challenges — I mean, the procedures are basically the same, the actual procedures are the same, but the whole conversation around it and experience is very, very different.

Deborah Bagg: Yeah, it is. And we haven’t even gotten into who’s the mom — there are other things that happen once the baby’s out, but for another day.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Yeah, I think we covered a lot of ground, and I think we’ve shed a lot of light in different areas. Were there any last thoughts or comments that you wanted to leave the listeners with today?

Deborah Bagg: I guess what I’d love to say is, there is so much support and resources — you have to do as much reaching out in strange places, and trust the fertility process, which is a very mysterious one. These are all the practicality things that we’ve spoken about, but it really, for me, I feel like it is a deeply spiritual experience, for us all to decide to come into this crazy world that we live in.

So as much as we can be in the practicalities of it, to also trust the deeper spiritual element to this — which is kind of how I felt about our donor, like the mysterious thing of him showing up really speaks to — even though the process was hard for me, I felt like there was a faith as part of this for me. So I don’t take that part out of it when we’re talking about fertility, and the whole procedure, because we can get so stuck in the nitty-gritty of just the practicalities, but it really is a spiritual, mystical experience.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, you’re bringing a life into the world, so I certainly think there’s always a certain degree of magic when it comes to that.

Deborah Bagg: Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, I just want to thank you so much for being here today and sharing your story. Where can the listeners go — if any of the listeners live in Brooklyn, to find yourself — or where can they go to find out more about you?

Deborah Bagg: Yeah, you can come into our shop — I’m in Prospect Heights in Brooklyn, and I have a shop called Spirit Shop, where we specialize in vaginal steaming, which has been a huge process to mass fertility, so we opened up a store around vaginal steaming, which I share with my friend who’s a registered herbalist. We have lots of books on menstruation — we actually sell Lisa’s book, that’s how I met her, her incredible Fifth Vital Sign book — we’ve gotten so many great feedback from that book too. So we have lots of products for psychosexual and menstrual health, and I also have a yoga studio and healing arts workshop space attached to it, so we have lots of fun things to look at and experience.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Okay, well, make sure to link to your shop and yoga studio in the podcast show notes. Thank you so much for being here, Deborah.

Deborah Bagg: Thank you so much, Lisa.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it with a friend. You’ll find the show notes page for today’s episode over at FertilityFriday.com/325.

I hope that you enjoyed my episode with Deborah — thank you so much for coming on the show, Deborah, if you are listening to the replay. It was such a treat to have the opportunity to talk with you, and thank you for letting me ask so many questions, and basically get so many details of your experience, to really help the listeners who are either in this situation, or planning ahead to conceive, and wanting to know what this would look like.

At least learning about others’ experiences can really help us get into those nitty-gritty details of what this really looks like, because I feel like that can be one of the biggest challenges and biggest mysteries — what does this actually look like, what are my options. And I really appreciate Deborah sharing her experience with the midwife-assisted at-home insemination, because I’m guessing that not everyone listening may have even known that that’s an option, or that it may be an option depending on where you live and what services you have access to.

So a special thank you to Deborah for coming on the show and sharing her experience, and raising awareness of some of the challenges that couples face when they don’t fit that heteronormative box essentially in our culture. So if you know someone who could benefit from today’s episode, the link to share is FertilityFriday.com/325.

And I want to thank all of you for tuning into the show, for supporting Fertility Friday, for sharing with your friends, and really spreading the word about fertility awareness. Make sure to head over to the show notes page — same link, FertilityFriday.com/325 — and I’ll link in the show notes previous episodes that I’ve done on similar topics, so support specifically for the LGBTQ community, and particularly an episode that I did with Rose Yewchuk a while back, where she talked specifically about the application of fertility awareness for same-sex couples, or couples that just don’t fit into that heteronormative box.

So thank you again for being part of the Fertility Friday community, for tuning into the show, for sharing the show with your friends, and really helping to spread the word — I truly appreciate it, and that’s really how Fertility Friday has grown over the years. And so, with that said, thank you, have a wonderful week, weekend, a wonderful day, whenever you’re listening to this episode, and, of course, as always — until next time, be well and happy charting.