Healing After Miscarriage and Stillbirth (Episode 324)

Full Transcript: Episode 324

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Welcome to the Fertility Friday podcast, your source for information about the fertility awareness method and all things fertility. I’m your host, Lisa Hendrickson Jack. I’m the author of the fifth vital sign and the fertility awareness mastery charting journal. I’m a certified fertility awareness educator and holistic reproductive health practitioner with nearly 20 years of experience teaching women to connect to their fifth vital sign through menstrual cycle charting, balancing hormonal health, and optimizing the menstrual cycle without hormones. I’m outspoken about hormonal birth control and its impact on fertility and overall health because you have the right to know how your body works and how artificial hormones disrupt that natural process. I host live coaching programs to help you achieve optimal fertility and health because it’s important to have healthy menstrual cycles regardless of whether or not you want to have babies. I’m also a wife and mother of two beautiful boys. I know, I know, I’m a busy girl, but I managed to fit it all in. This podcast is designed to empower you to take full control of your cycles, your fertility, and your overall health. And I’m so excited that you’re here with us today. I’m excited to share today’s episode with you. Today is a really powerful episode. I’m sharing my interview with Christine McAlister and as you’ll hear on the podcast, we met recently and she offered to come on the show and share her experience, her personal infertility journey. And, to be honest with you, at the time that I was listening to her, you know, along with you when you listened to the episode, I wasn’t actually familiar with her whole story. And so, when you’re listening to the episode in real time, you’re right there with me because it was the first time that I had heard her full experience as well. And let me just say that not only did Christine struggle with fertility challenges, She also struggled with loss, but the most incredible part of her story is how she came through that and what happened on the other side. So without further ado, let’s jump into today’s episode with Christine. And I’m really excited to be here today with Christine McAlister. She is an entrepreneur, business coach, she is the author of the number one best seller, the income replacement formula, seven simple steps to do, doing what you love and making six figures from anywhere. And you may wonder why I’m having an entrepreneur on the show because that’s not usually how I introduce my guests, but Christine had an incredibly powerful experience with fertility, and She managed to somehow turn those trials and heartbreaks into something positive. And so in today’s episode, we’re diving into her story. For those of you who’ve been listening to the show for a while, you know that I have had a number of episodes talking about loss, talking about fertility challenges and really interviewing those who’ve been through those because everyone who’s listening is on a different stage of their journey. So some of you are No babies, but I know many of you are in the midst of your own challenges with fertility So really excited to have you here Christine. Thank you so much for coming to the show.

Christine McAlister: Thank you Lisa I’m excited too and we met in person a few months ago We were in beautiful sunny California, and we were just hanging out and doing a lot of really important We’re having a lot of really important powerful conversations So I just had to mention that because I when I saw your face I was like oh my goodness the last time I saw you we were so happy we were so warm and we had both flown across the country to to be there and then we had to fly back across the country a very short while later but it was worth it and we got to share an Uber to the airport which is well and you have a very new baby and You were pumping throughout our whole trip constantly. I was. Yes, thank you, Willow. That was a game changer. –

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, let’s jump right in. I mean, you can start wherever you like, but I’d love to hear about your journey, your fertility journey, and how it led you to where we’re at now. –

Christine McAlister: Yeah, so I was a person who wasn’t sure I could get pregnant, I had been diagnosed with PCOS. I had always, since high school, had irregular periods. And so when I think because of that, I was somewhat ambivalent, like not willing to commit to the idea that I wanted to have kids, because I wasn’t sure I could. And then I was all up in my head about whether I was going to be good at being a parent because I got married a little bit later and I sort of in my mid-30s by the time I started really seriously thinking about all of this and so there was just a lot of sort of like internal pressure and external pressure and uncertainty about becoming a parent and so the way that I found out that I could get pregnant was, unfortunately, I had an early miscarriage. And that was confirmation for me that, oh my gosh, maybe this is possible. And I think in that experience of loss, I thought, well, maybe I do want it. It was this weird, weird thing that happened. And so then I became intentional about trying and started working with my OB and taking some, you know, ovulation drugs and had success getting pregnant two more times, but then had two more early miscarriages. And so the doctors were kind of like, well, the good news is you can get pregnant. We just need to keep you pregnant. And I thought, oh my gosh, that’s such a weird good news. It’s so weird. Because obviously I was super new to all this. I don’t know what’s good news and what’s not. I’m just like, what’s happening, right? This is really, really, really traumatic for me. And then I was able to get pregnant again and had a textbook pregnancy. I got pregnant using Clomid. I had a textbook pregnancy, but I also got depression very, very badly from the hormones. And I just had a really, really rough time of it, although on paper, everything was great and everything was progressing fine. And I was considered low risk. And I was putting my feet up, getting ready to go into labor and have this baby. At 37 weeks. Car seat was in the car and I went to my midwife appointment and there was no heartbeat. And that is how I found out that my baby had passed away. Had no previous indication that that was even going to be a thing. It was literally just wait to go It was going to be magical and wonderful and perfect. And straight to the hospital to be induced to deliver this baby who I now knew had already passed away. And that was a little over five years ago. And that experience that I didn’t even know could happen. I didn’t even know that was a I changed everything about my life, the way I looked at the world, my experience of how I like chose to show up, who I chose to be, everything, everything, everything was kind of like blown up in that moment. About a little over 24 hours later, I think, I delivered this baby who was a little girl. We named her Maeve Evelyn. She was perfect. And we never found out any reason why this had happened. And apparently that’s the case half of the time. And, you know, when I held her in my arms, I looked down at her and I was like, Oh, if I had been given the chance, I know I could figure this out. Like I know I could do this. Yes, I want this, right? I want to be a mom. And now I have to figure out how to parent this baby who never took a breath right because I want to create a legacy for her and so that’s sort of been everything that I’ve done since then and I want to make her proud and I want her to not be forgotten right and because only a few people ever got to see her and so that was like the defining moment not only of my fertility journey but also my life and so I went on to get pregnant again with Clomid with my rainbow baby who is now three and a half another little girl and then I worked after that with a naturopath and worked pretty intensively on healing my gut and my hormones and taking a bunch of weird herbs I’d never heard before in 20 years of doing naturopathic help and health and doing food sensitivities and just healing healing healing healing healing and I then got pregnant on my own for the first time with my now 10 month old another little girl and now my fertility journey and my family building journey is complete because I am closed for business.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Oh, Christine. Oh my goodness. I just want to take a moment because, I mean, I’ve done a couple interviews over the years. What I find is that within the span of maybe five You have taken us through years of your experience and some of the just the deepest depths of sadness and loss that is possible as a human being. So I just want to just take a moment because this is heavy and I think that when you said I didn’t even know this was a thing. I didn’t even know that was possible. I mean, 37 weeks pregnant, that is, I believe that that is the worst, like it’s like the worst nightmare of, of, like every woman who has been pregnant with, yeah, so who, for those of us who can’t imagine, I’m sure there are women listening, though, who’ve had this experience, because the sad part is that it does happen. Stillbirth does happen. And there are thousands of women who have experienced it. So for the women in the audience who have experienced something similar, to share with us just how, how, I mean, on the other side of it, when we’re talking and laughing, I mean, you’re obviously here and you’re doing okay and you’re mom of two now, but share with us how you got through that. –

Christine McAlister: Yeah, I mean, humor is definitely a coping mechanism. And I think anybody who’s been through something really hard, that actually the Harvard Business Review Book on Resilience talks about how resilient people often use dark humor to deal with the things that they’ve been through. So that’s a thing. Harvard says so. But it’s true that one in 160 pregnancies ends in a stillbirth. And I know most of them are not full term, but I been through what I’ve been through and also discovered a community and anybody who’s been through loss will understand this of people who were willing to be there for me and people who had made too uncomfortable and who disappeared. And I think that that’s true of any fertility experience if you choose to share it with other people. People don’t know what to say, they’re afraid of saying the wrong thing, they don’t want to hurt you or they’re too uncomfortable and in their own heads and listen I was that person before I went through all of this so I don’t have any judgment around it but well maybe I do but like I try to be compassionate about it. I know that it’s more about them and their discomfort than it is about me and them not wanting to be there for me it’s just like which one wins out right but What I’ve found, the things that that kept me from going into a deep dark hole and never coming out, because I knew that was an option. And I could see myself choosing that, right. It was like two paths diverged in a word. Which one’s Christine going to be like lying in bed for the rest of her life on disability, a drunk, or to just not have to deal with it and numb all the time, or finding a way to do something positive, make Maeve famous, and make an impact in the world, because I was no longer, I was no longer afraid, like I had been a people pleaser, I’m a helper, I am a high achiever, I had like all this identity in being good and nice and kind kind and helping people. And I still have a lot of that, but I’m no longer so worried about offending people. I’m not really worried about taking risks because I feel like the worst thing that happened to me that I could possibly imagine happened. It happened, right? Like I really would have rather traded places with her and like have given her a chance to have a life. And so this happened, the nightmare happened, and so nothing worse could happen. So what the heck, right? What do I have to be afraid of anymore? I mean, seriously. But some tangible things that really helped me. There’s this place in Wisconsin /Minnesota, headquarters, one place, actual place, another called Face Lodge, And someone told us about it really early on. It’s a place where you can go and share it a cohort of people who have lost a child and have like this really healing powerful weekend. And we so, Mae was born in early March. We went Father’s Day weekend. So just a few months later. And we were with this group of people. Most of them were professionals about our age, first children who all lost their kids at full term, unexpectedly, just like us. And I have never felt like more seen. And these are people that we now, five years later are flying across the country, someone drives through like they stay with us, we spend a weekend with them. And to have that kind of understanding and community was huge. And it’s why just like what you do, Lisa, it’s so important to have people who get it and whether it’s fertility or it’s loss or it’s both I think that was that wasn’t continues to be absolutely huge to have a place to process that and then of course like all the therapy and all the coaching and all the any kind of support yes yes yes and more yes right saying yes instead of being like I’m good I’ve got this because I didn’t got it, and I don’t got it still, right? (laughs) This is always going to be complex, talking to the girls about their sister in heaven, right? And their older sister, who, as my husband says, can like, she will always be the perfect child. She can do no wrong because she did no wrong. And he’s like, I just know when their teenagers are gonna be like, yeah, we can like live. So it’s just all these, how do we celebrate birthdays? How do we include her in Christmas and holidays? And it’s just always going to be a conversation. And also I’m here for it, right? Because that’s the way that I can parent her. –

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Wow, that is, that’s incredible. I mean, when you were talking, I was tearing up when you were saying that, so the greatest fear, the worst thing that could happen, the thing that would, the thing that keeps many of us like not this specific thing. I mean this in a broad sense of whatever that fear is for you, but whatever that worst fear is for you that keeps you small, you lived it and therefore everything else was kind of a moot point. And that’s actually a theme that I’ve heard a little bit here and there where if you actually go through something like that, then it kind of is like, Well, so what if I start a company and fail, right? That’s where the dark humor comes in, right? Because like we already know what the worst thing could happen and I’m still alive and some days probably felt like unfortunately, right? But here we are, right? Yep. So that’s really really powerful. I want to ask you a question and you are welcome to not answer it. I’m asking this question because I’m sure I’m not the only one who had this thought. Because the worst possible thing did not happen to me. I had two babies that I delivered. So you were given the news that there was no heartbeat, but the baby’s still inside of your body and you delivered that baby. Can you talk a bit about that?

Christine McAlister: My midwife told me what was going to happen. So what do we do? After they had put me on multiple machines because they were hoping that the one was broken, right? And so she said, okay, here’s what you need to do. You can go home and get some clothes if you want, but hospitals right across the street need to go check in there. You need to, you know, they’re going to induce you. And I said, no, I was like, you can knock me out. And you can wake me up when it’s over. And you section. I’m not doing it. There’s, I can’t even fathom going through labor, right? I was all ready to have like the hip -no -babies thing and, you know, we’re done all the training and all the things and had this super clear birth plan and Lottie Dah, right? And obviously that all went out the window. My husband asked me if he could play the hip -no -babies music for me as I was, you know, getting induced. And I was like, no, that’s stupid. I hate it. He was like, okay, I don’t want anything to do with that. I’m going to the extreme opposite. I am not here for that. Right. So I said, I’m not doing it. Why would I do that? Why would I put myself through it? Just take care of it. And she said, we can. But you and she like choked up, she said, it will be much easier and better for your grieving process and we know this if you experience it. And I was in such shock at the time. I was just like whatever you say. I mean I just trusted her in that moment because we were very close and we still are and I said okay like if that’s what the research says then I guess and I was planning to use a doula and she had never been through this either and so we were both kind of like would it be helpful to have her here is she gonna be able to show up the way she wants to show up it’s gonna be supportive to me and we ultimately decided both of us decided like yes she would come and she would support me through it which was a great choice and I looked at her and I said how in the world am I going to like have the strength to do this and she just said you’re gonna garner it you will And apparently I did! Wow. Now that you went through that on the other side, do you have a deeper sense of why your midwife said that to you? Like why she said that that would be. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the labor itself was was pretty rough because it was induced and they were trying to do it as fast as possible because as my midwife told me like the sooner I delivered Maeve look was another reason to like get the show on the road and not go home and do any processing or anything like that that’s what she told me so again I just listened and They also encouraged me us to do things like take pictures, which I was like, “Why would I want to do that?” Now that’s the thing I would save if my house was on fire, other than the things that are living. That’s the thing we have backups upon backups of. We have a photographer who was from, she is from Finland and we, Maeve was born in the middle of the worst snowstorm in recorded history in the city where she was born. I mean, it was like, well, a hospital is a good place to be right now, ’cause ain’t nothing else working, right? It was in a city where people don’t know what to do in the snow, and literally, we had to have a friend with a four by four truck come and take us home on the roads, on main roads, because we couldn’t get our car out for a week. And so she was not afraid of the snow because she’s from Finland, so she came barreling in at like 2am and just, you know, was willing to take these pictures, which are now my most prized possessions, and to do like a ceremony in the room and to just create some meaning, right? Because we only spent a few hours with her, and I don’t remember a lot of it. My husband says he really got to spend some quality time with her, and I really didn’t because I was just pretty out of it. But I did get to hold her, and I did get to get those pictures, and kind of share some of those moments with our parents and a chaplain who drove across town in the snowstorm to do a service for us and so I did it all because they told me to you know because in that moment it just was all unfathomable like you’re handing like I’m sitting here with a pregnant belly and you’re handing me a brochure on how to plan your baby’s funeral like what is this what is my life how is it how did this happen in the space of a couple of hours. You brain cannot. So I’m just kind of looking around at people like have a seat. What do you think we should do? Here you play. I don’t know. I got to go inward and deliver a baby. But I do understand why she said that. And she was set on. Because if I had to go back and do it now, I would want more time with her. And I would say like I’m not leaving the hospital I am I’m gonna stay and I’m gonna deal and I’m gonna and I’m gonna try to make some more memories here while I have the chance.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: What you said earlier came to mind that people fell into two camps some people who were willing to just be there and others who couldn’t handle the discomfort. You already know that the reason I’m asking these questions is because no one talks about this stuff. Yep. And people do have those types of questions and they don’t want to ask it because they feel so uncomfortable and they don’t want to make it worse. Yep. And by talking about one of the scariest things that you could ever go through, it shines a light on it. Yep. One of the other things that came to mind is that how blessed you were to be around the midwives that you had, who had experience and wisdom in this area, because it does feel like the opposite of, in the moment I would imagine it feels like the opposite of how to handle it, but as someone who’s gone through birth, the process of birth is, it changes you. It’s just so powerful. I don’t think I’ve ever really experienced anything as powerful as birth and the amount of emotions and all of that. And so when I heard you say that my intuition resonated, like, but it’s also like, you don’t want to do like, you know, your intuition is kind of like, okay, that actually sounds like it would allow me to process this. But then on, like your head is like, no way,. Oh, wait, I can’t do this. So it’s like the head versus the heart ’cause the heart does know that, but the head would be like how, like hell’s to the toe. Yeah, yep, yep, am I midwife? I mean, I had had a hard time finding and a care provider that I connected with in pregnancy because I was dealing with the depression and I didn’t even know the thing, but like I couldn’t get off the couch, which is the opposite of me. I lost weight. I couldn’t eat and my husband was like what is going on like he wound up making me call and saying like I’m not okay and getting on medication even though there was a risk because I couldn’t take care of myself and So I was I had a really hard time Finding someone that I didn’t feel like I was being treated like a cat a member of a cattle herd. Just a huge practice where you just go in and get out. Like when I sat, so my husband Googled, this is five, six years ago, he Googled like midwives in our town and there, her name came up and she had one review on whatever the website was, she was the only one. Not like there was no, you know, she’s the only one with any rating and it was a good one. So went in and met with her and she’s the first person that, after we had talked, had the first appointment, she just sat there. She just sat there. She was like, what else? I was like, huh? You mean you’re not like running out the door, right? So I, anytime I connect with somebody that I really appreciate, I just like go out of my way to make them be my friend, so by this point, like I’m pretty sure, you know, I was one of her favorite patients because I was thoughtful and kind and we had become friends and so her like supervising doctor told me this is the first time she has ever been able to show up for somebody in a lost situation but she’s choosing to right and she’s been a midwife for I don’t know how long she’s choosing to because of the relationship that you all have And ever since then, we have been great friends. My husband and I started a nonprofit. She raised this funds for it through various things. And she, like the picture of her catching my first rainbow baby is like her favorite picture of all time that we’ve given her permission to share. It’s just like this experience for her encapsulates why she’s a wife, right, to have been able to be there on both ends of the spectrum and show up even though it was extremely emotional and uncomfortable for her. And I think it’s really just powerful to witness, like this, this is the worst thing that happens in this profession. Like these people don’t get to process it. The nurses, the L &D nurses, the OBs, the midwives, they don’t get to process it like we get to process it they have to go into the next room right and deliver another baby and so I think it’s just it’s really important to think about like choosing a care provider right that that it’s going to be able to walk alongside you hopefully become a friend understand your neuroses if you’ve been through loss because man I was hella neurotic with the next two pregnancies are you kidding you I mean, that was one of the questions I was going to ask you obviously because

Christine McAlister: so I’ll share my opposite experience So this is I’ll just kind of say and we’ll just kind of navigate. I’m not going to preamble it

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Yeah, so I had a loss at five weeks pregnant Meaning that it was the week after I should have had my period based on my charting Now, you know, working with women, as I do, we all jump in with like, well, my experience was nothing because Christine had a stillbirth at 37 weeks. So I think at the end of the day as well, I mean, it’s important just to remember whatever that experience was for you and what it meant for you and just like just say what it was and it’s not a competition, right? I mean, There’s no hierarchy of grief like everyone says I can’t imagine what you went through. I say that to plenty of people too, right? So losses losses loss, but with that said so like it was so early on I did not experience it as traumatic I was sad and it was it did hurt when when like it was like the most painful period of my life If you want to call it that and I’ve had pretty painful periods They are up there with labor And that experience was worse than the majority of my labor so let’s put out there But like for me then when I became pregnant with my eldest son now after that it was immediately after I was I mean, I was showing people were calling me out and I didn’t want to tell people So but obviously That fear kind of dissipated after I hit my third like like the first trimester, right? Like after, ’cause I have that date, most of us have that date in our minds, right?. Oh, how did you deal, Christine? Because you had a stillbirth at 37 weeks. I mean, there’s no magical number. No, no. –

Christine McAlister: I mean, you can still be freaking out at 37 weeks, like. Oh, and I was. I’d be going to the midwife every day. I’d probably buy a Doppler stethoscope and learn how to test the heartbeat myself. Yep. I mean, I was such a head case like my husband told me after my infant was born this time because I was then also parenting you know a two -year -old and it was very challenging he told me you were hostile in pregnancy like to the point where I was worried you weren’t going to bond with this baby and he said As soon as she was born, you were like, “Baby.” And he said, “I was so relieved.” So from an outside perspective, that was the experience of the person who lives with me, the adult who lives with me, but I was so anxious. And honestly, looking back after my infant was born, I was like, “How and why did I put myself through that two more times. How and why? Like, I’m glad that I did, but the logical part of me is like there was something other than logic at play here. You know, I did things. I was like you. I did not want to be approached. So I did things like wear sunglasses in stores and put on my RBF and just like, and I am, I’m a –

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: For anyone who didn’t catch that. –

Christine McAlister: Yes, resting bee face. I’ll just look real sour, put on my sunglasses like I was famous, wear big baggy sweatshirts. People couldn’t tell, I just gained a bunch of weight. Or if I was pregnant, it didn’t sleep well. I mean, all of the things that you would expect, re -putting yourself in the same situation that created your PTSD, Putting yourself through that trauma again, and then I had to learn how to advocate for myself in terms of when I wanted to be induced to be delivered, right, because I wanted it to be before the point at which Maeve had died, which we figured was like a couple of days, right? And that was really controversial, and the guidelines change between, you know, rainbow baby one or rainbow baby two with ACOG. And so, I mean, I’m working with the doctors, I’m working with the midwives to be like, we need to find a reason to induce me. Like, give me the shot for my baby’s lungs, because I don’t care if she needs to go to the NICU. She will be alive, right? If I could go back and deliver maybe 36 weeks, she would be alive. It’s like such it became such a relative thing and people didn’t get that oh you don’t want a baby in the NICU I was like F you you don’t want a dead baby like you have no idea what you’re saying it’s it just became this relative process where I needed to figure out how to advocate for myself and make sure that I did everything I could to not repeat that experience because we didn’t know why so there was no factor to control for other than my body failed me at 36 weeks and five days and it failed me. So how do I control something that I have no idea how to control for? See this is I

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: appreciate you for sharing that with that. I mean this is one of the biggest challenges when I’m working with somebody who has maybe they’ve been trying for a really long time or they’ve had miscarriages. When they do get pregnant it’s simultaneously the best news and the scariest news at the same time because you’ve been working up to this point for so long and then it happens and then you’re pregnant but it’s now the train has left the station and you really have very little control I mean you have can there are things that you have control over right you have control over your emotions to some degree you have control over how you eat how you sleep how you take care of yourself yourself, you know, the type of care that you request and all of those things, like the external things. But in terms of the actual baby growing in your uterus, like there’s no control. And what I always say to my clients is that this is the metaphor for motherhood. Because once you have a baby that comes into the world alive, they, there’s no controlling another human being. They come out with their own personality, their own challenges their own whatever they are and whatever you thought parenting was going to be like it’s not that. So yeah, it’s just not it never is. I mean the challenge to Christine like looking back obviously we do the best that we can do with what the knowledge that we have and like I think that you did amazing given the trauma that that you went through the challenge is that had you done nothing Your two beautiful babies may have just come into the world just fine and you’ll never know and so the hard thing I think for most of us is Actually letting go the fear and one of the things that I’ve said a lot to my clients over the years It’s like especially in these situations where it’s been a long time trying or multiple miscarriages It’s like, you know once a day. So this is just my thing So, you know, take it or leave it, right And everybody’s listening, but I truly believe that it’s okay once a day To put your hand on your belly at whatever stage of pregnancy that you’re in And close your eyes and imagine For a moment that everything turned out amazing exactly how you wanted it If you’re at the beginning stage of your pregnancy Imagine yourself with a big belly and you’re complaining that your feet hurt and your partner is making fun of you And you have in this wonderful moment and make it so real that you even might start to tear up. Do that for five minutes every day. And I promise you that you can freak out and stress out for the rest of the day, whatever you need to do. But like, give yourself, like, imagine that it turns out okay. And live in that moment, live in that moment, even if it’s just for a couple of minutes every day. Because if you don’t allow yourself to just imagine and live in like what if this could turn out okay and what if whatever, then you’re constantly always living in the worst case scenario and we don’t even know enough about energy to know if we could be manifesting it. So I feel like we need to be giving ourselves a period of time and that’s hard, but I still strongly firmly believe that. Yeah. No, I love that. And I got that same advice when I was it with my first rainbow baby, right? And freshly, I was, I was, May was born in March. I think it was cleared in June. I got pregnant in December. So still the same year that she had been born. And the grief was still so raw, so raw. And yeah, I had friends say like, what, just spend some time, like you said, visualizing that this is going to be different, that this is going to be better, that you are giving yourself permission, that that could be true. Yeah, well, in a question that I had, so you mentioned how just how difficult that pregnancy was for you and the depression and just it sounds like it was very just not good at all. Right. What were your other two pregnancies similar? I mean, obviously, they would have been stressful for the different reasons, but. Yeah, they were. They were. I knew what to expect, which was helpful. Wow. So, each time They were like that. Yep. I was super sick for most of the pregnancy. So in the subsequent after -mayve pregnancy, I knew I just need to eat, even though I probably am gonna throw up most of it. I don’t need to be losing 10 pounds in the first trimester and laying on the couch, lethargic, right? To the second rainbow, baby. I couldn’t do that because I had a two -year -old Not an option which made it even more exhausting, but man the hormones just no matter how I got pregnant, right? the hormones just really really Retavoc on my on my mental health on my energy and on my like digestion on on my sleep. I just, I was not a glowing, happy, pregnant person. I just wasn’t confined to me. Well, I mean, this is why we need to have these conversations. One of the things I’ve often said, particularly as it pertains to miscarriage, so less so stillbirth. Well, I shouldn’t say that, but miscarriage, I would say, is more common. But one of the things I would say about that is that is that it’s just part of this systemic issue that we’re not educated about anything related to our fertility and our health, right? Let alone birth and all these different possibilities. So you mentioned that you didn’t know that this was a possibility. And most women don’t realize how common miscarriages until you have one or two. Yes. And so it’s this most devastating thing that you didn’t even think was a possibility for a lot of women who experienced carriage for the first time, it’s just, they’re completely shattered and they have no idea that half of their friends also had miscarriages, but didn’t tell them because we don’t talk about it. So it’s like, once you have a miscarriage, you’re welcome into the miscarriage club and all of a sudden people come out of the woodwork, people come to your door, like all of these people that you had no idea also have a miscarriage. And so it’s just something that one of the things that I share with my clients. And again, it’s like, You can look at it two ways, you know, the way the medical system seems to look at it is that we’re scaring people, but the way I look at it is where adults and information is useful. So when I share with my clients that when you hit the age of 40, statistically speaking, one out of every two pregnancies ends in miscarriage. The miscarriage rate varies by age. So overall, the miscarriage rate may be about 15%, 15 to 20%, But when you are 20 the miscarriage rate is closer to maybe like 8 % like between 20 and 25 But it goes up significantly once we hit our 30s and mid 30s and 40s and by the time you’re 45 It’s like you have to get pregnant four times to keep one Statistically speaking now if people knew that I feel like it doesn’t make it easier. Miss carriage is always horrible But but if you knew that the first thought in your mind might not be, it’s my fault, my body’s broken, something’s wrong with me. Maybe if we knew the statistics, and we talked about this more, that we could at least just, again, information, it helps us to contextualize. It helps to know I’m not the only one going through this. If it’s that common, there are hundreds of thousands of women who have also had this happen, and maybe I can find some support. –

Christine McAlister: Yes, and the same thing happened to me. I thought I didn’t know anybody who had been through this or knew someone who had, but one of my very best friends at the time was a little bit older than me. She shared with me that her mom had had a stillbirth. And what happened was she had been, it was the time when women were put in twilight to deliver, right? So she was in So she was in twilight with that is because there are people who don’t know it’s like almost unconscious like under out and pulled the babies out. Yes. Yes. There are people who are so young that they don’t know that that was a thing. Talk about traumatic, right? But they thought that was the kind thing to help you deal with labor is to knock you out, right? So they would give you drugs and basically you’d be unconscious and then they would take forceps and pull the baby out. Just for the listeners who don’t know what twilight birth is and it’s real. Look it up. Yep. Yep. So yes. Thank you for that. So just having her baby normal. This is what’s normal. Baby passes. They kept her in twilight until after the funeral that they thought that was what was the best at the time. This is probably the ’50s. And my friend said that she could remember, this would have been her older sister who passed. She can remember her mom just going to the gravestone and crying and crying and crying and crying for years, right? Nothing wrong with that, but she did not get to process like I did. That was what was used to be the standard. And honestly, this, her mom, my friend’s mom, now has dementia. And before she had dementia, she was addicted to Xanax. And I was like, uh -huh. I know why, right? She didn’t get to process. How do you, how do you live with that? Did her deeply?. Her baby, she didn’t get to. No!. Oh my God. No! And she went on to have other children and she never forgot that little girl that she lost that she never got to hold, but she never got pictures with that, that, that, that, right? So that, I mean, there is a generation of women living with that. And where it was, don’t talk about it, get pregnant again as soon as you can, that was the advice. Oh dear.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, you know, when you were sharing your experience and, you know, the midwives advice and what you went through. So I, you know,

Christine McAlister: a lot of my friends are nurses. And so, like, one of my really good friends is a laborer and delivery nurse. And she has experienced, obviously, it’s exactly what you said, like, she’s experienced these things. And then obviously, it’s not the same, like, you don’t get time to process, but she shared a similar experience of a woman whose child was born with encephaly and basically the child was born. And for those of you who don’t know, encephaly is a really serious, it can be a really serious life threatening birth defect. So the baby was born, but the baby couldn’t survive. And so she knew that that was going to happen via ultrasound and all that. But the whole family, all of her children and everybody were in the room.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: And so this, I just want to say that because This is something that actually does happen like in the world. This is something that people go through and it’s something that for whatever reason We don’t talk about as a culture But what occurred to me when you were sharing your experience and and one of the reasons why one of the first things I said was so fortunate that you had this level of support It made me wonder for women who don’t have that level of support whose practitioners may be a really busy or who Don’t have the same level of sensitivity to the mother and the baby and the family for a situation like this. It made me wonder what the experiences are of women who don’t have the opportunity to have that. I mean, the twilight is like the worst. If there’s worse, I don’t know, that feels like the worst, but it made me think of all the women who didn’t have that opportunity and didn’t have that level of support going through something like this. It could make it so much >> Absolutely.

Christine McAlister: And frankly, some of the people that we’ve met right through FaceLodge and through, “Oh, you should talk to Christine because she’s been through that. Maybe she can help you,” right? Or somebody just went through this, “Christine, can you send me the articles that you’ve written about what to say, what not to say, blah, blah, blah,” right? And some of our friends, based on the state laws where their baby was born, weren’t able to spend much time with them or had to have an autopsy when they didn’t want one or or or right or like the the doctors wouldn’t work with them and their subsequent pregnancies to induce based on the experience like nope sorry you have to go to XYZ whatever it was and so I think You’re exactly right. I mean there are plenty of people who didn’t have the experience that I did and who will not have the experience that I did. And so, I mean, that’s so much of the reason that I’m here talking to you, talking about this thing that’s obviously not easy to talk about, because it’s really important to me to have these conversations because it will help, it will help people in the future who go through this and know that they can advocate for themselves, right? Like, until I make All the money that I need to prevent preventable childhood deaths and figure out what causes this stuff and like fund the heck out of it It will continue to happen statistically. And so I want Just like with miscarriage. I want people to be resourced around What is the most helpful so that you can kind of go on autopilot and go they said to do this thing I’m gonna do this thing. I’m gonna ask for this thing right as more and more hospitals get okay there’s a network of photographers that they can call there’s a there’s a beautiful nonprofit that makes these incredible gowns for these babies and they’ve had one and so I like stalked stalked the hospital until I found out who the organization was and became a supporter and you know spoke at their keynote and all this stuff because I’m like we have to raise awareness for this it’s happening There are people who are serving these families and just most people just don’t know about them yet

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, I mean, I just want to thank you again I’ll probably just keep saying it but for sharing your story so openly for talking having this difficult but powerful conversation and shedding some light on This because this is a topic where people really stay away from I haven’t done a ton of episodes about I did one with a doula and I you know there’s some criticism with because it was there was abortion we talked about we talked about miscarriage and we talked about stillbirth and so obviously there are some folks that found it to be it’s always a controversial we talk about any any of these types of things but to kind of talk about together but from that perspective of how the doula supported women through these various things it’s an interesting process to hear and to hear how women experience it differently. And yeah. But this is,

Christine McAlister: these are, I don’t know, these are the challenges that can happen. Birth and fertility and infertility is so complicated and so challenging. So let’s talk a little bit about how this experience transformed you. You touched on it a little bit, talked about the importance of getting the support that you needed that can’t be understated or overstated or whatever the right way to Say that is but share with us. I think the one question that I want to ask, but I don’t want to ask them and ask it is Would you change it?

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Such a great question And a complex one. Yeah, right I

Christine McAlister: The further out I get from it, the more gray the answer becomes. First and foremost, now I have these two little girls who I wouldn’t have if I had Maeve. Ain’t no way I’d be getting pregnant nine months after she was born if she was here and alive. You know. (laughing). Nope, that’s a hard no on that. It’s not gonna happen. Hard no. Yeah, all Yeah, exactly. So I’m super aware of that. My family would look really, really different. And I think I’ve gotten a lot more into the spiritual meanings of all of this. Like for a long time, I blamed myself and I felt as a parent that I was and as her living in my body right where she died like I felt responsible and I remember I was talking to one of my coaches who a business coach but you know we have these conversations because that’s just how I roll and I said like I don’t know if I can be okay like living with the fact that I somehow caused this and like I’m responsible for her death. And she said, Christine, if you believe that we are all co -creators, which I do, then Maeve was as much a co -creator in this. Like she had choice to make in this. And I thought, that feels helpful, I’m gonna hang on to selective, you know, whatever you want to call it, selective morality, I’m here for it in this case, but like another friend of mine, I don’t know if I believe in this or not, and I don’t think it matters, ’cause again, it was helpful, but another friend of mine told me that Maeve and I have been together through multiple lifetimes, that we are, yes, that we have this bond up differently that you know we have these different relationships but like she is still very much here I have the morning dove is a symbol for her for me and for a lot of reasons and there are like she sets off toys in our house like in the middle of the night on her birthday one went off like all day that has never ever gone off by itself before until the batteries ran out like hours. And you know what it was? It was the stethoscope in the doctor, in the kid doctor kit, and it was a beating heart. Like, what is that? You know, so I have all of these things that bring me a lot of comfort. Like, I would never have chosen this. But to answer, like, I think there’s more of me that wouldn’t change it than that would, for all the reasons I’ve just said and for like the opportunity like the gift in this is that she gave me the chance to reinvent my life and I have I’m now doing work that I really believe that I’m called to do like this is my work in the world I would do it forever and for free right And I am doing it forever and not for free But like I’m helping women all over the world like you are right, which is how we met Yeah, and so I’m finally like have found my purpose in terms of work, in terms of career, and in terms of like the impact that I want to make. And I’ve stepped into that. I’ve found my zone of genius. And I wouldn’t have if I didn’t have this experience with Maeve because I was comfortable enough and I was scared to change the comfort. And then when I got as uncomfortable as I could possibly get, then I was like, well, screw it. Let’s go to the next level. Let’s figure out what that is like we talked about. I’m not afraid anymore. I’m doing this thing I’m gonna help women like change their lives using the things I’m good at and I I don’t know I Don’t know what other experience could have Helped me become that person and then also to like serve with a nonprofit to help people who’ve gone through stuff like this to Have a platform that talks about how you can go through something really hard and still create a life that that you love right I mean I just I think up into that point I had this story of like so I grew up in church right so everybody you hear a lot of like testimonies and usually they’re really dramatic ones like I was on the streets and now I’m you know not because of God right so I had this story that I didn’t have a great story or a great You know, she’s been through stuff. She gets it. She’s not just like sitting somewhere Sipping wine and raking in her trust fund. I thought I had one but like, you know perceptions of people, right? Yeah And and then I was just like just here for that in a way that I wouldn’t have been otherwise and so yeah I think that’s my answer Mm -hmm. So powerful Well,

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: one of the things I’ve noticed I mean once you once you do get pregnant and you do have a baby then your mom and you’re busy and your mind is in a different place so the fertility challenge ends when you get pregnant have your baby because there’s no longer a fertility challenge so for the women who are in the trenches so to speak who’ve recently experienced loss and this is why they tuned into this episode who Are scared of experiencing loss. They’re pregnant and I don’t know why they’re torturing themselves and listening to this episode But you know who you are If you’re pregnant, I should maybe I’ll say this at the beginning of when I put it in but like I don’t think it’s when I was Very pregnant like in the 36 37 week or you know, whatever that stage was when you really big and you’re feeling like you’re about to pop I I didn’t watch any like bad birth videos. I only watched the good ones. I only watched these women who looked like they were sleeping and just like pushed out like when they had no birth. I refused to watch anything and I didn’t want to hear ’cause when you’re pregnant, everyone wants to tell you like, “Guess what?” And I was like, “No, shut it down.” Only, only easy sleeping births over here. Yes, totally. So, you know, if you’re pregnant, I think I will say at the beginning, it was supposed to post in the end, but like, don’t listen to this episode, you know, waited till after the baby comes, maybe. But then some of the women who are listening may have had a loss previously, so then they’re listening for a reason that’s different. There’s no judgment here, do what you want, but I’m just saying, don’t torture yourself, but I get it if you are. So till again, we’re supportive, all sides, we’re supportive. Anyway, so the question out of that is for the woman who has experienced loss and isn’t there yet. It’s easy to, not easy, but you’re in a different place now. Yeah. So you’re coming and showing up with lots of energy, lots of love, lots of understanding, lots of wisdom because you went through the trenches, you’ve been through it. For the women who are not there yet. What do you want to say to them? Yeah.

Christine McAlister: It is okay to feel, however you feel as cheesy and cliche as that is, it is okay to feel like you’re losing your mind. And it’s okay to hate the world and feel like it’s so unfair and unjust and why me and that you want to put on sunglasses and talk to no one and sunglasses inside and put on your resting bee face and hide out from the world if you want. Like it’s okay to like sit in your car and scream if you want. And I just think this whole experience has given me such empathy and understanding for the idea that we never know what’s going on with someone else. Never. I can remember going to the grocery store for the first time after I came home from the hospital after Maeve died and I’m walking around with my mom and I’m so out of it that I turned to some man and started talking to him like he was my mom. And and my mom’s standing several feet away on the other side of me and she’s like, “What is happening?” You know, and then I caught myself like, “I’m sorry.” But what I realized walking around that store is I’m looking at people going, they would never know what I just went through. And I have no idea what they’re going through either, right? And so there’s this quote that I love that says, “Be kind for everyone you know is fighting a hard battle.” And I think that’s what I would say, but I would say first be kind to yourself because when we’re going through this stuff, it’s so easy to beat ourselves up and blame ourselves and like I get that. And also there’s no one right way to feel or do this. And I think it is an opportunity to ask yourself what you need and give yourself permission to get that be that have that, ask for that, because no matter how this journey looks for you, that you’re going to hone and develop in order to make it through this journey, whatever it looks like, and to have beyond it, whatever that looks like. Hmm.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Oh my goodness, Christine, this is just such a powerful conversation. As we draw to a close, I mean, I mean, we could end there, but I just want to give you the opportunity. Is there anything that you would want the listeners to leave with today?

Christine McAlister: I think the knowledge that you’re not alone and that you can survive anything even if it seems unfathomable or unimaginable and that the way that you do that is by getting help and saying yes when people ask if they can help you. I remember that people didn’t know what the heck to do to help us and so people started offering to bring us meals. And I literally said to my husband, I don’t feel right saying yes to that because I don’t have a baby to hold. I physically can make my own meals ’cause that’s where I was to that point. I was independent, proud of it. I don’t need anyone, right? And he said, Christine, just want to do something. They know they can’t do anything to make it better. They want to do something, just let them. And so I said, okay, and the meals started coming. And I found myself really grateful that I didn’t have to cook. I don’t want to be cooking. So I still don’t want to be cooking, but I actually didn’t want to be cooking then. So I, I, I feel like that’s such a huge lesson. That’s such a tangible thing. Let people help. Let people who are available for the hard stuff in your life be there for you. This is why we’re having this conversation. Whatever you’ve been through, someone else has to. And between your circle of people that you already have and the internet, like you can find them. I found other blogs and wrote the author and said, “Thank you. I don’t feel alone.” Right? I found you in the middle of the night. I’m weeks out from this experience. I’m really glad to know you’re further out. Like, do that. Utilize whatever resources you have and allow yourself to be supported even if you’re so independent and even if you’ve never done that before because that’s what makes the difference.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: So important. I love that. There’s something that so before we started recording, I asked you, I said, you know, what do you want the listeners to take away from this episode? I was like, that’ll help me ask questions or whatever. And I wrote down just what, what I wrote down from what you said was no matter what you’ve been through, it’s possible to survive and thrive. You get to make your own meaning. Thank you so much for being here, Christine. This conversation was more powerful than I could have imagined. I’ve been tearing up over here constantly. And my heart has basically just been singing, because I feel that these are the conversations that we need to be having. These are the real experiences women are going through. This is why I do what I do and you do what you do, because all of this, you know, the stuff on the TV with everybody smiling all the time and happy and then all that weird, like, futuristic, crazy stuff that we should not be watching anymore. None of that has anything to do with reality of what people are actually going through. And these are the meaningful conversations that are necessary and that we should be having. And I feel like this is a really important part of learning about our fertility and the learning about how to manage this this role that we have in the world as creators. And I say that as women who make babies and these are it’s almost like the the secrets of the red tent of all of the midwives that have come through all of the years this is the wisdom and the knowledge that they impart because these are the real experiences that life is made of right like not like primetime tv yes i just got chills when you said that thank you thank you for sharing that. Okay, well, let us know a little bit about you, what you do, your programs, where people can go to learn more about you. You mentioned some blogs that you’ve written, like just tell us about all the things. Yes. So

Christine McAlister: I founded a company called Life with Passion, and I help high achieving women to replace their incomes and in anywhere. So if you are working on income replacement and you want a free chapter of my book, you can go to lifewithpassion.com /freechapter. So I’m running a special on my Kindle book right now and like giving all the proceeds to Feeding America and Save the Children. I absolutely would love to connect with you on Instagram. I’m @lifewpassion. I seriously love to have these one -on -one conversations, you probably wouldn’t guess it, but I am an introvert, so I am here for all the one -on -one conversations. And that’s the best way to get in touch with me is either on Instagram or grabbing a free chapter of the book, which will connect you with me everywhere else, and that’s lifewithpassion.com /freechapter. I also have a podcast. If you want to learn how to build a business that you love from your passions. It’s called No One’s Ever Ask Me That. And we go in depth on how to do this whole business thing on your own terms. And we have a lot of fun. So check that out too. Awesome.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, thank you so much for being here and for sharing so openly and honestly and fearlessly of your story. I don’t think that neither you nor I can imagine how important this episode was for so many women. I don’t think we’ll ever really know. Because thousands of, you know, thousands upon thousands listen and you just never know this episode was probably exactly what so many women needed to hear today. So thank you so much for for just being here.

Christine McAlister: Thank you for inviting me and for creating this space to have this conversation.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it with a friend. You’ll find the show notes page for today’s episode over at fertilityfriday.com /324. I hope that you enjoyed today’s episode with Christine. I mean, what a powerful conversation. I was in tears. I’m sure you were in tears. We were all in tears together, but thank you so much to Christine for coming on the show and sharing her experience and being such an inspiration, you know, it’s just incredible to think about the types of challenges that we can make it through and it was just so inspiring to hear Christine talk about how she turned essentially an unimaginable experience into something positive and just one of the things that she said that struck me was that since she had already been through what would many of us would consider the worst possible thing you know, it made everything else seem like a non -issue in terms of motivating her to follow her, you know, entrepreneurial dreams and also her motherhood dreams and just kind of do what felt right in her heart. And so I hope this episode was inspiring to you. I hope that, especially for those of you who have been in the midst of experiencing your own losses, miscarriage is so common. I talk about that on the show Fetal loss is so much more common than any of us know, and it’s often only when you experience loss of your own that all of a sudden you realize how many others have experienced it as well. So I’ve spoken to so many women over the years who they had no idea that so many of their friends had experienced miscarriages or other types of loss until they experienced one. And then it’s like, you know, everyone came out of the woodwork to share their experiences. But before that, you know, so many of us had no idea that so many women have gone through this. And so I hope this episode has been inspiring for you, hopeful, but also to acknowledge that deep pain that loss can cause. And of course, the way Christine continues to honor Maeve. It’s so inspiring that she’s essentially taken a stance that, you know, my baby won’t be forgotten, we’re going to always remember her and talk about her. And again, this is part of the conversation that we don’t hear about a lot. And especially for anyone who’s gone through loss and experienced miscarriage, we don’t really have a template for how to do this. And so there’s a lot of feelings and a lot of, you know, thoughts that you might have around it, and how do I do this? What’s right? Is it okay if I do this or that? And I feel that for many of us, Christine, just in the way that she’s handled it, has given us permission to handle it in whatever way that we would want. And so with that, I just want to thank you for tuning in to today’s episode. If you know somebody who would benefit from listening to it, the link to share is fertilityfriday 3 /24. And I hope that you have a wonderful week, weekend, day, whenever you’re listening to today’s episode. And of course, as always, until next time, be well and happy charting.