Sexual Communication and the Orgasm Gap (Episode 506)

Full Transcript: Episode 506

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: This is the Fertility Friday podcast, episode number 506.

Today I’m sharing my interview with Amy Baldwin and April Lampert of the Shameless Sex podcast. Amy is a sex and relationship coach, certified sex educator, lead educator for Uberlube, as well as co-owner of a mother-daughter-owned online pleasure boutique and was also voted 2022’s Sexpert of the Year. April is vice president and co-owner of Hot Octopuss, an innovative pleasure product company and was voted Woman of the Year in the pleasure product industry. Together, Amy and April combined forces to create the Shameless Sex Podcast, inspiring radical self-love, sexual empowerment, and shame-free intimacy. In today’s episode, we’re talking all about their new book, Shameless Sex: Choose Your Own Pleasure Path to Unlock the Sex Life You’ve Been Waiting For. And just a friendly warning for those of you who are listening to this podcast in shared spaces or perhaps in the car with little kids, today’s episode is dealing with adult content. So just keep that in mind when you’re listening. So without further ado, let’s go ahead and jump into today’s episode.

So, I’m really excited to have Amy and April back on the show. It has been years and I’m so thrilled to have you and congratulations on your book, Shameless Sex. I’m so excited to dig in and talk a little bit about it. So, for the listeners who probably it’s been a while since you’ve been on the show, I would love to ask a couple of questions. So I want to hear, just tell the listeners how you got into this work, what inspired you to start this Shameless Sex podcast. And I’m also dying to know what inspired you to write your new book.

Amy Baldwin: And Lisa, just real quick on the — it’s been years. I feel like you look younger, you get younger by the year, because I’m like, oh my goodness, you look amazing. So it’s so nice to see you. I was like, “Oh, the years have been good.” We’re like a fine wine. We’re all like a fine wine. We just get better with age. I decided to say that. Likewise.

April Lampert: Oh, so that’s my cue. Okay, so let’s see. Amy and I — let’s say the short version of our journey in the shameless sex realm. I personally got into the human sexuality field when I was 18. I’m 38 now, where I took a human sexuality class at my community college here, and I loved every second of it and had so many questions about my own body and other bodies and orgasms, because I didn’t understand it. And I decided if I was going to go to school for a long period of time, I might as well go to school for something I loved learning about and had a lot of questions about, so it was human sexuality. And fast forward to my mom and I opening up a mother-daughter sex shop in Santa Cruz, California. We had that for 12 years as a brick and mortar. It’s called Pure Pleasure Shop. Now it’s just online. Amy and I were already BFFs. She was the first and only friend I’ve hired. She ran the shop for a year with us. From there, we both kind of transformed into the sex toy realm. We were obviously working with sex toys on the retail floor, but we started working in the manufacturing side. So I’ve worked for many brands, but now I primarily just work for Uberlube as their lead educator. April, you were the head of global sales for Fun Factory, amazing company. And fun fact about that — the very first vibrator she ever owned was theirs, and I gave it to her. She did. Anyways, through all of this, we knew that we would do some sort of creative collaboration in the human sexuality field. We just never knew what it would be. And in 2017, we guested on Sex with Emily, and she is a dear friend of ours and one of the number one podcasters in the world when it comes to sex. And she’s one of the longest running — she’s had her podcast for I think 18 years. And that’s the prize. And the episode that we were on was called Orgasm, Squirting, and the Year of Anal Licking, if you want to know more about that. But it’s hilarious. You’re like, what was the year of anal licking anyways? You have to listen to find out. But we loved it and we loved every second of it and we just loved our dynamic and so we decided to start a podcast and that’s when Shameless Sex was born in 2017. We’ve released weekly episodes ever since then and we never missed a week. And the book — fun thing about the book is we were both small children who wanted to write a book when we grew older. We didn’t know each other then, but we said to ourselves, one day I’ll write a book. And I always wanted to write a nonfiction book too, because I don’t really read fiction. It’s rare. I think I looked at a journal entry and it said that I didn’t want to write a novel, I wanted to write nonfiction. So isn’t that weird how you can manifest things? And then so we came up with this concept in 2018, actually kind of when we met you and you guested on our show. And so it’s like a choose your own adventure book, but it is nonfiction. Choose your own adventure is trademarked, so it’s a choose your own pleasure path book. We came up with it because one, there wasn’t anything like that out there, but also the premise of our podcast for Shameless Sex is very much like we’re not going to tell you who you should be as a sexual being because you are your own person and we’re all very different. So instead, we give you a lot of tools, practices, concepts, ideas, and how you can figure out who you are, how you want to navigate sex and relationships. And choose your own pleasure path seemed like the best way to do it. By end of 2018, we were not fully ready to write the book. So it took about three years until an agent reached out to us and said, have you ever thought about writing a book? And we’re like, actually yes, we have a concept that’s been on the back burner for about three years. And it took about two years to write it. We also had tons of content from various experts, a lot of different guests that we’ve had on the show that are doctors and therapists and sex educators and podcasters. And the question was, how can we combine all of these facets of our work that we already had instead of reinventing the wheel? How can we help people that don’t have access to podcasts or don’t want to listen to podcasts? That is kind of where the book was established from — choose your own adventure and take all the experts and combine their knowledge into one thing that you can carry with you.

Lisa: Well, I’m going to share something that I don’t know if it’s silly or not, but I’m going to share it. So when I got your book — I’m holding it in my hands — and I saw the title, obviously Shameless, same title as your podcast, it finally occurred to me that it was more of a deeper meaning. But then I open your cover and there it is right there. Shameless, adjective: of a person or their conduct characterized by or showing a lack of shame. So I feel like that is such a great place to start, because I really don’t think that when we first connected that I thought about how deep it goes and the kind of more important message of taking the shame out of sex. So I’d love to hear just a little bit more about that. Now that you’ve interviewed so many people, you’ve written the book — I can just imagine some of the conversations that you’ve had. Tell me more about that.

April: One thing that we realized — because when Amy and I first started our collaboration, we knew each other very well. We were friends for a long time. And one thing that we both were, we were very shameless in our conversations around sex. And we talked to a lot of people because we were both educators. Amy did a lot of workshops because she is a certified sex educator. And so when we were having our conversations and talking about the podcast and the goal, we were like, we’re gonna eradicate shame and help the world be shame-free. And then we realized — wait a second — it took a little bit of time, but we realized, okay, shame is also, although it can be a hindering factor on pleasure and people having the pleasure that they deserve and that they desire, it’s still a part of who we are as beings, as human beings. So eradicating shame and making sure that people are shame-free is not our goal. We don’t want to make anyone do anything anyway. We want to help them see that their shame is going to be a part of who they are, but you can utilize that and it can help you grow and also you can maneuver through the shame experiences. And shamelessness, I think, is almost honoring those pieces of you, maybe those darker pieces, those shadow pieces, and moving forward to knowing that it’s a part of you and almost utilizing that as a reason that you are the unique, beautiful person that you are and that you can be sexual and sexy even if you have shame — no matter if it’s an STI, or you think you have like ugly bits, which I was like that for a long time, I didn’t appreciate my vulva, or you think that there’s weird pieces of you or that you’re broken. None of those things are true, by the way, because you’re not broken. You’re beautiful.

Amy: Yeah, it was important for us to help people see that we all have some form of shame and trauma. And if you don’t, then come talk to me, because I have questions for you. Because it continues to come throughout our lives. So instead of — let’s get rid of shame and just be as clean and pure as possible, which is just not real, not possible, not true — it’s how can we use it as a teacher and have tools so that when shame continues to come, because it can or will likely, now we are more equipped to work with it so that it becomes less impactful in a negative way and less of an armor that we’re wearing where we feel stuck and disconnected from our bodies, our sexuality, and our partners in a way that feels like it’s limiting our lives. And we did trademark Shameless Sex, so that’s also why it makes sense to use it for the book because it makes sense — they’re together, they’re a couple.

Lisa: Well, so we haven’t — I haven’t had an episode on sex in a while on my podcast. And there’s something I kind of ponder because I turned 41 just a little while ago and when I’m working with some of my younger clients who are in their 20s, I do see a difference. So I’m curious of your perspective. So I talk about the pill a lot, obviously. And I feel like there was this whole idea that the pill was supposed to free us of our hindrances, right, and open up the sexual revolution and make it so that we could just have all this sex without having the consequences of getting pregnant. And what’s interesting about that is I feel like — and this is just my opinion and I could be wrong — the younger generation now has gotten to the point where there’s now an expectation that they’re on the pill. And that comes with this expectation that he’s not going to wear a condom when we’re talking about a gendered relationship. And then so this so-called liberation results in all these women who aren’t even comfortable enough to negotiate, say, for sex or whatever, let alone an orgasm, let alone the pleasure piece. And I’m really curious if you found anything similar and what your thoughts are on that and what we can do about it.

April: Well, I will say for sure the pill, the IUD, the hormonal IUD — for me the IUD was horrible because my body rejected it. But there’s non-hormonal ones that Amy even got pregnant on. And I’ve had many friends get pregnant on the IUD that was non-hormonal. But the pill, it can have its benefit. I feel — I am 41 as well. My partner has a vasectomy. We’ve never tried to get pregnant because he has three kids. And so I talked to his three daughters. They’re all over the age of 19 now, 19 to 29. And when I went to the gynecologist — because I was 39 and going through hormonal shifts and not understanding what was happening — I was like, I’m kind of a raging, and I don’t really like where I’m at, where I feel like my sexuality is shifting and what can I do? And it was just like the pill, the birth control pill, was pretty much just what was offered to me, even though I actually didn’t want to explore that again. I got off the pill a long time ago because I didn’t want to put all those hormones in my body. And then it was like, no, but you should — for your period being heavy — I thought it was the only recommendation. There were no other options. I asked about other options and that was it. And it was perplexing to me. So coming back to your question, there’s a mixture of people thinking it is the solution that can help you have less periods, sometimes no periods. Some girls get really bad cramps or really heavy flow, so maybe it can help them and make sense for them if it’s debilitating and they have to miss school because they can’t move. I get that. But there’s also just media that’s more sexualized too, right? You can see a lot more people out there talking about sex on TikTok that don’t have any qualifications. They’re not licensed to do anything. And I think that all of this gets soaked up with our youth and we don’t have real people out there giving quality information that is accessible to teenagers to let them know what else is out there besides what they’re consuming on the media.

Amy: What I’m hearing with what you asked is the penis-centric model for sexuality — very much like, okay, what pleases the penis? And oh, you’re on the pill, right? So we’re good. And I’m clean so we should be fine, we don’t have to think about all these other things. So it’s this thing that’s like expected, and then if you’re not on it, there might be something wrong with you. No, I’m not on the pill. Wait, why aren’t you on the pill? And so it’s like this one-sided conversation of who should show up and take care of the fertility piece. And then we’re disregarding STIs and STDs altogether and the penis-owning human isn’t taking any responsibility for this act or various acts that are going to be happening. And I think that that’s just a problem. It’s a problem that continues on. And it’s beyond birth control. It’s with pleasure too. There’s the orgasm gap, which is a real thing. We still live in a very penis-centric model for pleasure, meaning like his coming or pleasure is more important. And people have compliant sex. A lot of young women do have compliant sex. I’m guilty of that when I was in my 20s.

Lisa: And what is compliant sex?

April: The orgasm gap is — if we’re talking about cis men, cis women — there is a huge gap there where the penis-owning folks are having a lot more easy access; they’re having more orgasms than the vulva-owning partner, speaking primarily of heterosexual relationships. A lot of times it comes from the lack of understanding of the female anatomy. And also the orgasm gap is related to so many things, like a caretaking mentality or culture around women thinking like, I need to put someone else’s, especially my romantic partner’s, feelings or sexual needs before my own — they get put on the back burner. People pleasing: oh well, I don’t want to make him mad so I’m going to do this. Which comes to compliant sex. The compliant sex is — we can call it maintenance sex, or just tolerating, or this is what I should do. This happens in short-term casual experiences to long-term relationships. So if I were to define that, I would say — so he’s using your body as a masturbation tool. And you’re choosing to potentially do that if it is a consensual experience. You haven’t said no, you’re just kind of like, oh this is what I have to do. It’s consensual, but you’re consenting to him using you. And the way that I would think about that is that you’re not necessarily deriving a whole lot of pleasure from it, but you’re going to participate in it for all of the reasons that you’re going to do that.

Lisa: I think that’s part of what I was kind of thinking of too. And I think that porn has a lot to do with it — the kind of male-centric, penis-centric scenario where everybody knows how to make that thing do what it needs to do, but then people seem to be clueless as to how to support the female in enjoying herself. I suppose that’s kind of one of those things where I wonder sometimes — and this comes from legitimate clients. I do all these programs with clients, I work with clients all the time. I teach fertility awareness. So in order for you to use this method for birth control, there are benefits if you’re not on hormones, because the hormones can have a negative effect on the libido and the sensation for some women. But in order for it to work, you have to have a partner who’s willing to play ball. You have to have a partner who’s willing to work with you, because there’s going to be times when you can’t just be accessed for sex without some sort of plan or protection. And I just feel that there seems to be a growing number of women who may not feel comfortable doing that, or just — I don’t know if it’s the unset expectation that your body is there for his pleasure.

April: Have you read the book Girls and Sex by Peggy Orenstein? She also wrote Boys and Sex in the last five years. But Girls and Sex — this is like 10 years ago maybe. She was saying that the statistics for young people in the United States at least having penetrative sex — it’s not that they’re having sex earlier, they’re actually having sex later than they were years before. But girls are giving blow jobs at younger ages than they were before. Why? Because it’s for attention. It’s what you’re supposed to do to get the attention of your boyfriend or the boy that you’re into, to keep them, to keep their love. And this was a thing when I was a teenager too. And it’s — compliancy is a huge part of it too. You know, I might not want to do this, but if I don’t do this then I’m going to lose my boyfriend or I’m not going to get the attention. And it’s like built in and ingrained in this culture that we’re living in. And it’s really problematic.

Amy: Well, it’s very black and white where it’s like if you don’t do that you’re a prude. Or if you have sex with your partner or too many partners — and I’m using too many with air quotes — because there’s slut-shaming then, right? And that’s a lot of — we’re probably speaking more for those folks that are teenagers having sex. And that’s part of shifting the mentality. So it starts from a place of talking about pleasure instead of talking about what sex is — and pleasure for your own body. So taking ownership of your own pleasure and doing something because you want to and you’re a big yes and it feels good. Or saying hey, no, and taking ownership of what you want. And then it goes on the flip side too — no matter the gender of the human, making sure and taking into effect what every person or people throughout your sexual journey — what their pleasure is like — and honoring their yeses, their nos, their maybes, instead of expectations or shame when something happens or someone isn’t orgasming when you thought they should or your body is shifting and not cooperating to your sexual experience. So it’s all kind of linked to this. It’s more than sex education. It’s honoring your body, your pleasure. Your body does keep the score. You can’t say I’m sorry with your body. And that’s a big piece that I remember so many times growing up in my youth — almost saying sorry with my body. Or saying thank you with my body. They bought me dinner, or they took me out in my 20s, so I probably have to do this. And I hate that that is something that I did. But it’s true. Or also I remember — and this still happens too — like if you started making out with the guy, you owed him more, right? Like you can’t just make out — now something has to happen with genitals. Or we touched genitals, now it has to be intercourse. Which also is very common in long-term relationships. Like once you start to have intercourse, you know, it’s like okay we can’t just make out anymore. And then people miss it. They’re like, I miss making out. I miss when it wasn’t just like from point A to point B every time. And then we have people that are really unhappy in their relationships because they want variety and they don’t want to feel that pressure to always have to go one way.

Lisa: Okay, so I have a question about all of this — then what are some of the ways that you found, what are some of the things we can do or the ways that we can talk to our partners? So going with the kind of gendered scenario — heterosexual relationship — you have a woman in a situation like this where she either just doesn’t feel comfortable, maybe she feels like I could never come off the pill because I could never negotiate with my partner. Or you have someone who’s been in a relationship or been with a number of partners and has never actually had an enjoyable orgasm in a partnered relationship. What are some of the ways that you found that we can actually make that happen? Negotiate that?

Amy: Sounds like a communication issue. In our book we talk about — it always is, isn’t it? People ask us sex questions. It almost always comes out of communication. But we talk about not just talking about sex — we talk about talking about talking about sex, which in itself can be hard. If talking about sex is difficult for you, then the step before that is to talk about how talking about sex is difficult for you, and how do we even talk about sex?

April: I don’t think that’s weird at all. I think that is literally the first step. I wouldn’t have thought about it like that, but yeah — you just fully say, this is awkward for me, I don’t really know how to talk about this. That makes it so much easier to talk about it. Like, I know I want to talk about it or I need to talk about it but it’s really hard for me to talk about it. Or I know people who are in relationships with partners who don’t seem to open up to talk about sex. So instead of just trying to have a conversation about sex, let’s have a conversation about talking about sex. And you know, here’s what’s really important to me, here’s what I’d like to talk to you about, here’s my fears in talking to you about this — I’m afraid of losing your love, of being too much, of not being enough, of saying it the wrong way, of offending you. And so when we talk about talking about sex, we’re really big on outing the awkward, the discomfort, the fear, because once you kind of highlight the elephant in the room, it’s not really there as — or at least as big or strong — as it once was. And also like embracing the fact that talking about sex can be uncomfortable and awkward. And when you get really good at it, it can be really fun and enjoyable and playful. And so yeah, I think that’s like the outing of the elephant in the room, and then also conveying the level of importance to you. I think when a lot of people talk about sex — hey here’s something that I’m really interested in trying, or I want to get off the pill and do the fertility awareness method — your partner might not even take it in at all unless you say, this is really important to me, like this is like a core value to me or something that is really important to me to incorporate into my life. Like I really want to get off birth control and I want to do the fertility awareness method and I’m scared. And in order to feel safe, I need to be able to feel safe with you and to work with you. And this isn’t going to go away for me because it’s that important to me. Are you willing to work on this with me? That can land far better than, I have an idea, are you interested in talking about it?

Lisa: Well, and I think that’s really great. It’s interesting because I feel like after you say it, it’s like, well yeah, that’s so easy, but it’s not always easy for us to think about how to approach these topics. And I think the good news for anyone who is listening and has ever been in a situation like that or is really nervous about bringing up these types of topics — my experience on the other side as a practitioner has been quite positive. I find that most of my clients in their relationships are able to find a way to talk about this. And often their partners are really receptive, especially because if you’re in a relationship with a person who cares about you, they want you to be happy. So to give hope to anybody who is nervous about having those conversations. I was thinking of another topic — the orgasm gap. Maybe talk a little bit more about that and what you found. For women who are in those situations, how have you found this to resolve? What do we do if she’s not getting as many orgasms as he’s getting, again in a gendered scenario?

April: Well, okay. So there is so much research about this very topic — the orgasm gap. I think they’ve been doing research since probably the early 2000s. And when people discovered that the clitoris wasn’t just what you see outside of the vulva — it’s like, oh, it goes way deeper. It’s erectile tissue. Oh wait — people that are women, that are cis women, they’re composed of the same exact erectile tissue. Emily Nagoski actually talks about this in her book, which is called Come as You Are. It’s genius. Anybody that loves a vulva or owns a vulva, definitely check out her book. Because it’s like we’re all made of the same parts just arranged in different ways, is sort of what she kind of says. And it goes really into the science. And the orgasm gap talks about how folks that are clitoris owners take on average four times longer to get blood flow, to get arousal, to become in that state — why foreplay is so important — but in that state of, oh yeah, I’m ready for action, I’m ready for a sexual experience. Four times doesn’t sound like that much, but it actually is. When you’re a penis owner and you’re hard and you’re like, hey, I’m ready to go — that’s not necessarily the time to go if you’re with a partner that has a vulva. That means it’s time to focus on arousal and how to get the blood flow. And the orgasm gap is sort of understanding not only this part of the anatomy and how long it takes your partner — because it could vary, could take your partner five times longer. Your partner could maybe be on certain hormonal birth control methods that maybe the libido is shifting and it takes a lot more than that. You don’t know because each person is different and their experience is different, but these are statistics and averages. And so this orgasm gap also talks about how a lot of couples that are like lesbian couples, for instance, they have way more orgasms than a lot of hetero couples because they understand this gap, they understand each other’s bodies. So education — educating yourself if you are a person with a partner that has a vulva and clitoris — learn about their pleasure, learn about what they like, ask questions. Do some mutual masturbation or just watch them masturbate so you can figure out what turns her on. And that can help close this gap. It’s education, like everything else in communication. It’s about learning and not assuming that what you see in porn is practical to think that what you see these actors doing is possible in real life. They’re trained professional athletes almost — sexual athletes.

Amy: Yeah, I agree with all that. And I was thinking back to a relationship. Most people are pretty receptive unless you’re like, I’m not having orgasms, this is your fault, you’re a bad lover. That’s not going to land so well. I’m big on — and this is in our book too — phrasing things as a we thing, and less of a problem and more of a bonus or an opportunity to have deeper connection. Like, we have good sex, let’s have great sex. And here’s what I think can really help. If you go to someone and you’re like, we have a problem and we’re broken and you’re not getting me done the way that I want it — which is probably not your partner’s fault in the first place because, as April said, porn is a terrible educator, and they probably had sex with a lot of people who didn’t speak up. I will say though, I have had one experience personally with an ex-partner who I was feeling like I needed more — more slow touch, more warm up, more time for my body to get online. I thought I did a pretty good job approaching it. It did not go well. He took it personally, and then I shut down. I was like, okay, it’s not safe to ask for what I want. It got turned around as to like why it was my problem. And so I just want to say to everyone — that’s why he’s the ex. If you are really speaking as your most loving self and you’re saying, this is something important to me, this is for deeper connection, better connection between the two of us, and it’s a we thing, and they turn it around and make it a problem — if that’s what happens, this is not personal to you. Please still take those risks because it took me a while to figure out that it wasn’t a me problem. It was a we problem. He just made it a me problem. And we have tips in our book for that very thing — taking these conversations, taking them out of the bedroom. We were on a hike. And that was just a partner that was very difficult to begin with. We have pieces and chapters in our book — chapter four — it’s about talking about sex and about how to approach these sometimes difficult conversations. There are methods to the madness. But absolutely — if someone’s being a total jerk when you’re bringing it up in a way that is not about them, it’s about what your goal is and what’s important to you, then you could always get outside help. You could get a therapist or a mediator.

I’ll just offer one real quick tip. It’s in our book too. If you’re feeling like there’s an orgasm gap or a pleasure gap, or your partner doesn’t understand your pleasure, giving and receiving nights are really helpful. It’s an exercise where if April and I were doing this, April is the giver one night and I’m the receiver. And as the receiver, I don’t give that night, or maybe it’s a day, whatever. But it’s an opportunity for April to touch my body to figure out what I like, to make it all about me. Because this is also a receiving barrier when it comes to orgasm gaps — receiving barriers are often a part of it, a worthiness barrier. And so then my partner, if it was April as my partner, she could actually see: oh, it takes longer for Amy’s body to get online than my body. Interesting information. So if you take it not like a clinical context, but outside of a typical like we’re all going to get some context, it can be really helpful. You can take genitals off the table entirely, if you want to. But a lot of times it’s helpful just to see what the body wants rather than what the genitals want or need. The whole body.

Lisa: That’s such an interesting exercise because it’s sometimes hard to receive. Like you said, if you don’t feel worthy or if you’ve never had a partner who’s willing to take the time to do that. So that’s really, really great. As we start wrapping up for the day, I would love for you to tell us a little bit more about the book. I feel like we scratched the surface on some of the challenges that couples might face in this area. But tell us a little bit about your book. What else can we expect to receive there? And then tell us where we can get it and all the great details.

April: Okay. So our book is called Shameless Sex and it is this choose your own pleasure path. It’s divided into eight chapters. We took our most commonly asked sex questions over the years of having our podcast. We get hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands at this point, of sex questions. And they all sort of have a similar theme on some level. So we categorized a lot of these questions and realized that they all kind of fit into these categories: Am I normal? Am I broken? Are we broken? How can I spice things up? And so on. And Amy and I realized that how we curated the book, it’s almost like a past, present, future. Because if you want to become a sexual master, you need to start from the beginning — what are the reasons that there could be hangups, right, from within or from outside of the relationship? Let’s address your shame. So you can take each chapter, and then we take real sex questions that are inside each chapter that sort of have that theme present. And then we have what’s called the COPP — choose your own pleasure path. And you can choose: do you want to do X or Y? Then go to page 170 in chapter seven to get this outcome. And then you’re basically looking at the outcome that you desire. And you can either fast forward and just read that section or continue on. And the good news is it’s the book that keeps on giving. You can have it when you’re 41, you can have it when you’re 65, you can give it to your 18-year-old. Each relationship is different, each human is different. So even if you’re in the same relationship, you’re in a long-term relationship, it changes as well. I’ve been with my partner for now maybe six and a half years and there’s so many shifts that occur. What happens after a baby? You have a baby now, wait a second, my body is different. And there’s some people who have different medications that affect their sexuality. So the good news is it’s one book, but it’s multiple books in this one book that you can refer to again and again. And it’s also funny. I love the humor that we put in it because sex can be silly and playful. It doesn’t have to be so serious or clinical. It can be really fun. And Amy and I did a great job of weaving in our own personal stories from time to time when it’s applicable. But it’s not about Amy and I’s journey — this is about everyone reading the book. It’s dedicated to you, that sexual being that’s opening the pages and beginning to read it. And it’s also on Audible. We recommend, if you like Audible versions, get both.

Amy: And it really is a book that I’m proud to have written with April. I’ve given it to my mother, my grandmother, all of my friends. And it reads well. We did read it together. We did every other chapter.

April: So our book you can get — go to shamelesssex.com. That’s the easiest way to find Shameless Sex. There’s a link there on where you can buy. But you can get the book pretty much anywhere books are sold — Amazon, Barnes and Noble, your local bookstore. If they don’t have it there, go ask them for it and have them order it because we love our local bookstores. And you can find us on all the social media outlets at Shameless Sex Podcast. We’re mostly active on TikTok and Instagram. And go find our podcast at Shameless Sex. We release weekly episodes. And we’ll have Lisa back on our show. Yeah, come find Lisa on our show in the next couple months.

Lisa: Amy and April, it has been such a pleasure to have you back on the show. Congrats again on your amazing podcast and book, and I’m just really excited and thrilled to share this episode with my audience.

Amy & April: Thank you, Lisa. This was really fun. Thank you so much.

Lisa: Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it with a friend. You’ll find the show notes page for today’s episode over at fertilityfriday.com/506. I hope that you enjoyed today’s episode. It’s always fun to connect with Amy and April, and I love their message and especially our discussion about communication and opening up communication around sex between couples. I’ve always found that fertility awareness charting is something that really does open up that conversation. I think it’s interesting that it’s only — or often — when a woman is coming off birth control that these conversations open up, because of course if you’re on hormonal contraceptives, for some reason we think that it means that pregnancy is impossible. So I would certainly argue that regardless of your type of birth control, if you are having sexual activity with another human being, it is important to discuss that possibility of pregnancy and to really open up that conversation of what would you do if — and the different ways that you might be open to managing your fertility, especially if you’re looking to avoid pregnancy. I don’t think it should be that way where it’s really only when we’re using fertility awareness that the topic really comes up or when we’re not using hormonal contraceptives. But either way, I certainly encourage that open communication. And the feedback I’ve had from many clients over the years is that when they are using a fertility awareness-based method and they’re not relying on hormonal methods, it really does open up those conversations because you have to talk about what you’re going to do — because fertility awareness is the method that does involve your partner’s participation if it’s going to be successful. So with that said, I hope you have a wonderful week, weekend, whenever you’re tuning into the show. And of course, as always, until next time, be well and happy charting.