Home Birth Stories: Choosing Birth Outside the Hospital (Episode 417)

Full Transcript: Episode 417

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: This is the Fertility Friday Podcast, episode number 417.

Welcome to the Fertility Friday Podcast, your source for information about the Fertility Awareness Method and all things fertility. I’m your host, Lisa Hendrickson-Jack. I’m the author of The Fifth Vital Sign and the Fertility Awareness Mastery Charting Journal. I’m a certified fertility awareness educator and holistic reproductive health practitioner with nearly 20 years of experience teaching women to connect to their fifth vital sign through menstrual cycle charting, balancing hormonal health, and optimizing the menstrual cycle without hormones. I’m outspoken about hormonal birth control and its impact on fertility and overall health because you have the right to know how your body works and how artificial hormones disrupt that natural process. I teach women’s health professionals how to utilize the menstrual cycle as a vital sign in their practices, and I host live coaching programs to help you achieve optimal fertility and health, because it’s important to have healthy menstrual cycles regardless of whether or not you want to have babies. I’m also a wife and mother of two beautiful boys. I know, I’m a busy girl, but I managed to fit it all in. This podcast is designed to empower you to take full control of your cycles, your fertility, and your overall health. And I’m so excited that you’re here with me today.

Today’s episode is all about home birth. And home birth has a special place in my heart because when I was pregnant with both of my sons, I decided to have them both at home. And this was not a decision that I came to when I was pregnant. It was actually something I had thought about and kind of planned to do even in my early 20s for a number of different reasons. So today I’m joined by Sarah and Matthew Bivens, the creators of Doing It at Home, which is a platform for empowering home birth content and community. And really with today’s episode, I think that it’s a great opportunity just to share some stories about what it’s like birthing at home. Because I know this is a really interesting topic. For some, it’s a terrifying topic, terrifying idea. And for others listening, you may have had a birth at home or you may have been thinking about it already. So I think we have the whole gamut as far as this topic goes. So I’ll just tell you a little bit about Sarah and Matthew, and then we can jump into today’s episode.

So Doing It at Home started in 2016 when Sarah was pregnant with their first child and switched from a hospital birth — so from the idea of having a hospital birth — to a home birth halfway through their pregnancy. Both Sarah and Matthew were lifestyle coaches prior to becoming parents, and have since taken their past coaching experience and married it with their passion for home birth to make Doing It at Home the ultimate space for home birth empowerment. So that includes their podcast, their online community, resources, and a variety of different offerings. And I will make sure to link in the show notes page the episode that I recently recorded with them — I shared the whole story of my home births, both with my eldest and youngest sons, on their podcast. It was released, if you’re listening in real time, it was released recently. So I will share the links for that in the show notes page for today’s episode. So without further ado, let’s go ahead and jump into today’s episode with Sarah and Matthew.

And I’m excited to be here today with Sarah and Matthew Bivens. So welcome to the show.

Sarah Bivens: Thank you. Thank you so much for having us.

Matthew Bivens: Yeah, thank you.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, thank you for coming on. I was just saying in the pre-chat that I was excited to be able to interview both of you. I find double interviews to be super fun. And so I would love to just jump in — maybe tell us a little bit about you and what brought you to this point. I know we’ll get deeper into your story of home birth and everything, but maybe just share with us what brought you to where you are now.

Sarah Bivens: Yes. I would say for the relevancy of this conversation, I’d go back to 2016, and that’s when we became pregnant with our first child, Maya, and we were pregnant, thought we were going to have a hospital birth, and made the switch somewhere along the way — which we’ll get into more detail, I’m sure. And that switch to home birth really changed the trajectory of our lives in a really big way, from thinking, let’s just start a little podcast about it, talk about our experience, to now five-plus years later being pretty immersed in the birth world and talking about birth and babies and pregnancy all the time every day. And it’s definitely not something we thought we’d be doing at one point in time. We have different backgrounds of marketing as well as lifestyle coaching and personal training. And so now where we are is kind of a blend of all of those things to be doing what we’re doing. And you know, it’s just such an honor to have conversations like this with you. And we continue doing life together. We live just outside of Atlanta, Georgia. And it’s pretty magical. It’s crazy, chaotic, all the things. And we’re super grateful.

Matthew Bivens: I second everything that Sarah just said. You know, our journey has been one of a lot of deep personal work and working on ourselves and getting very clear as to what we want in life. And that absolutely translated into our decision to go with home birth. And you know, it’s stemmed out of this understanding that we can have the life experience that we really want. And so, why don’t we take life by the reins and go make it happen? And so, yeah, there’s a lot of things that have stemmed out of that sort of mindset for us, including but not limited to our home birth.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, and you mentioned when you conceived in 2016, so was it a pretty smooth, even keel — you decided to get pregnant and you got pregnant — or was there a bit more of a story there?

Sarah Bivens: There’s really no story there. It’s exactly what you said. We thought, let’s have a baby, let’s grow our family, and the very first month we thought about it, we were pregnant a month later. So it was very intentional. We had talked about it, but we just had moved into the active phase, so to speak, of seeking to conceive. But you know, it was very much something we were planning for and intending. But as far as the mechanics of it are concerned, we were very blessed and it was a very smooth experience.

Matthew Bivens: Yeah. I think we talked about starting a family for a year and a half, maybe, before we actually did it. And then we sort of had a time frame circled on our calendar. We said, okay, we’ll probably get pregnant in summer of 2016. And then, you know, again, the intention was out there to start a family and our conversations just continued. We said, you know, why don’t we start making this happen right now? And then at that point we got pregnant very quickly. Yeah, we’ve been talking about it and planning it, and you know, it was out there. It was out there in the universe. And so when the mechanics and that portion of the whole thing went down, yeah, we got pregnant pretty quickly and we were thrilled.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, so I want to hear more about what prompted you to kind of change your mind. So as I had shared with both of you, I had both of my sons at home. So my eldest is nine and my youngest is six. But yes, when it came time, I had known I wanted to birth at home, if it was a possibility, since I was in my early 20s. So I had made this decision like years ago. I did have some interesting conversations to get the husband on board. But I’m curious — was birth something that you had thought about? I mean, obviously you thought about starting a family, but had you actually thought about birth and how you were going to do it? Tell us what that was like and why you ended up switching your decision.

Sarah Bivens: Yes. Birth was not a big thing or a big topic. And I knew I would probably do it at some point. My mom did it three times. She had three — myself and my two sisters — in hospital, but with no medication. So I did have that just kind of as a concept, a context, a belief system around birth that I very much could do it unmedicated. So I knew that from the beginning. But when we were pregnant and just went to the OB, because that’s just what you do, that’s just what we thought we were supposed to do — and got the ball rolling on that. Everything was fine, in that I was very low risk. I’m a very healthy person. Everything was lining up. And we even had great rapport and connection and relationship with our OB. It was just through the course of then thinking a little bit more intentionally around our birth that I started to ask questions. I started to look at different possibilities. And a big catalyst for me was watching the DVD series Happy Healthy Child. And in that were who I now see as these juggernauts in the birth community, especially around holistic and natural birth, talking about just how beautiful and transformative and healing and magical birth could be. And I just thought, I want that, that sounds awesome, I could do that. And so that really got us thinking a little bit differently, so to speak, about what our birth could look like. And we started formulating this list of ideals and what I would like to experience: namely being unattached to any sort of cords or wires, I didn’t want to be poked or prodded, I didn’t want to be monitored, I wanted to eat and drink freely if that worked out for me. So things like that, the element of water if that was an option. And we went to one of our normal appointments — you know, where you wait for a long time, then you wait a little bit more, and then you maybe have like seven minutes of face time with the doctor — and in there, shared what our desires were, the intentions, and each thing just kind of got knocked off the list as far as what was possible with his practice in that setting. Not saying that the things we desired couldn’t be possible in a hospital setting, they do exist, but that just wasn’t going to be the route for us at that point in time. And we went back and forth a little bit. I’m sure this is where you could chime in, Matthew, in terms of from that point to then a home birth — there was a gap there, you know, in terms of conversations and moving through what-ifs and doubts and fears.

Because I’m also partnered to a man, I also have a husband. And I just remember these questions because it’s almost like he thought — it’s like, well, you know, what does the midwife come up, like show up with? And you’re like, no, she doesn’t show up with like a bag and throw out some bones on the floor. She’s like a trained medical professional, you know? This is like a legitimate situation that we’re talking about here. So, Matthew, what were some of your concerns or what were your thoughts? Like, were you immediately on board or not so much?

Matthew Bivens: I was not immediately on board. In my family — my family is doctors, especially medical professionals. So my father’s a doctor, my mom’s a nurse, cousins and aunts and uncles all in the medical field. So that was very familiar to me. I had spent time hanging out in hospitals as my dad was doing his rounds. And so I was used to that. I didn’t have any ideas or plans about where I would eventually support my wife in having a baby. None of that stuff came up as I was growing up. When we got married, I didn’t really think about that too much. When we got pregnant, then it became, okay, so this is the person that you’ve been going for your gynecological visits, this is kind of where we go for babies too, right? And everything — just like Sarah was saying — was marching on and we were planning this hospital birth. And then as I mentioned at the top of our conversation, you know, we’re very intentional people and we very much believe that we can create whatever experience that we want to have. And so we sat down and said, okay, what’s the experience we want to have in our birth? And that led to the list that Sarah mentioned. We brought it to the OB. He said no, no, no, no, no. And then at that point it was, okay, well what are our other options? Because it doesn’t seem that a hospital is going to be the place that allows us to do all these things.

So home birth didn’t come up then. We went down the route of exploring our options. We looked into birth centers, we looked into other things. And then somewhere around there is when we got introduced to — I think a midwife first. And that’s where the seed of home birth got planted. And you know, I didn’t know anything about home birth at that point. I just thought it was what crazy people do on farms and do it in the field. And I had all those ideas of home birth. And I’m grateful that I went through the process of education that I did, because I went from being on one side of the fence — which was skeptical and scared: skeptical because I had never really heard of it, TV doesn’t depict it, you know — and scared partially because of what TV does depict. They show birth as being this chaotic mess, the father faints, the woman’s screaming, there are trays of instruments being kicked over, and everyone’s just freaking out. And in my mind, if that’s what birth is like, then that’s something that has to happen in hospital, because I don’t want that mess going on in my house.

So we talked to a midwife, and I brought up questions. And really for me, a turning point was seeing birth. I’d never seen a birth — I’d never seen a birth other than the entertainment, you know, the crazy birth things on TV. So when I saw births and we were given DVDs of births taking place at home, that had a huge impact on me. Because now I saw the reality, the truth of what birth is and what it really could be. And so then I could connect that with a vision that we were having for what we wanted to experience. And what I was seeing in these videos and DVDs was so much more in line with what we wanted. It was calm, it was beautiful, low lights, water, it was serene. I’m sure there was yelling and there was going through the discomfort that can happen — but it was controlled, it was beautiful. And so that had a big impact on me. Taking all of my what-if questions and all my what-if fears and bringing them to the midwives, and having them answer those questions like the experienced professionals that they are — that had a huge impact on me. And then working with Sarah on getting clear on our vision. That had a big impact on me.

So after going through that process, I was fully on board. I said, oh, home birth is definitely for us. This is where we need to have a baby. And Sarah was a little bit — she stepped back of it just a little bit. But I was like, no, babe, this is for us. This is absolutely for us. And Sarah then got fully on board and we were locked in 110% going forward with our home birth.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: One of the things that always strikes me when I hear other couples’ stories about birth and about their experiences before birth, because like I mentioned, for me, I had wanted a midwife before I even conceived — like before I even had the partner. And so when I became pregnant, I didn’t actually ever see an OB. So the midwife took over my care right away. And so when I hear these stories of having five-minute interviews, having to wait an hour, and barely getting any of your questions answered — I just, it’s like another universe, because I’ve never had that experience. So, now that you’ve been talking about this and you’ve been doing interviews and you’ve talked about this so extensively, maybe just talk a little bit more about some of those differences. Like, at some point you would have switched to midwifery care — what was that like? Compare those two experiences.

Sarah Bivens: Oh, they’re so different. Yeah, it’s so stark in contrast. Just ours is an example, but to your point, we have 300-plus stories that we’ve heard. And that’s just published — I mean, that’s not all the other conversations that we just seem to get into, like at a barbecue. But so let’s see some highlights in terms of differences — and I’m going to collapse both our experience and other ones that we’ve heard, because they’re patterns. There’s absolutely a pattern to it.

In the hospital setting or going the route of an OB — and this is not everywhere, this is just what we hear and see — absolutely, the amount of time that you wait. You’ll be waiting in the waiting room, then you’re waiting in the room itself in the exam room, likely with paper wrapped around your body with your legs in stirrups and there’s a draft, so that’s super awesome. And then when you do get to see them, it’s a very short amount of time, it’s very by-the-script. There is very much a feeling that we hear — you’re just kind of a number, you’re just kind of a cog in the wheel, just not feeling very personal, not feeling very listened to. If you do kind of question things or stuff comes up, it’s kind of like, oh, you think you’re a doctor now? Like, oh, I forgot you went and got your medical license from last appointment to this appointment. Now you know everything. It’s like, no, I just like want to know what’s going on with my body, and I would like your feedback and your input here. I would like to ask a different question than maybe what’s normally asked. So anything that kind of challenges the status quo of just how it goes isn’t always met with the most warm reception, I would say.

And I can say personally — when we were starting to think differently about our birth and we told our OB up front, we were very transparent, we said we’re thinking about doing this differently and we’re considering a home birth — he plugged his ears like he was a child, like, you know, that doesn’t want to be reprimanded. And he just said, please — la, la, la — please don’t even say those words around me. And I just thought, okay. So things like that. Is there anything you would add, Matthew, about just what we’ve heard about the hospital going that route in terms of those appointments and the care?

Matthew Bivens: I would say that the system that they operate within, I believe, has a huge impact on the experience. Everything Sarah said is correct. And we liked our OB. He was a nice guy. We had nice conversations with him. I enjoyed his energy. And I just think that the system — the business of giving birth in hospitals — creates scenarios where you experience a lot of what we’ve experienced and a lot of what our guests on our show experience. Like I said, it’s a pattern. You know, there’s the waiting room and there’s the sterility and there’s the gotta-go-through-the-checklist. And the pleasantness was there for us, it just felt like we had to go through the process of being at a hospital.

On the flip side, the home birth experience was so different. First of all, it was in our midwife’s practice out of her home. She converted half of her home into an office. So we roll up on a house that looks just like ours, you know, this single-story ranch home in the woods. And we go inside and there’s couches and La-Z-Boy chairs, and surrounding us there’s just hundreds and hundreds of Polaroid pictures of all the babies they had helped birth. And we had an hour-long session. There was multiple people there with us the whole time. There was no getting out of your clothes to do anything. There was plenty of time to ask questions. And it just had a different vibe, like a different feeling. They felt like there was no rush. Really felt like we were one of a handful of people they were working with at the time. And it was like, okay, well, when you all feel comfortable and have all your questions answered, you can leave. Otherwise, we’re going to stay here on this couch and we’re going to talk to you and you’re going to ask us questions and we’re going to go through everything. So that was one of the first and biggest differences that I felt.

Sarah Bivens: You were included as well in a really big way. In the doctor’s office, I was the only one talked to and looked at, and you sat in the corner. And that’s fine — again, that’s the model and what they’re trained in. And when you said “us,” they answered our questions, they talked to us. Matthew was so included in the process. And I think one or two of the sessions was really just focused on you and gave you the time to ask your questions and make sure you were clear on not just the logistics, but then also you could get some stuff out, you could air some things out. So I really liked the family approach to the care. And then we had every member of our birth team meet with our midwives as well, because we had a larger birth team. And so each of them, we did some in batches and some of them got to come one-on-one, so that everyone knew each other, everyone was clear on everyone’s role. And so it was just such a group effort, such a collective, such a community-based approach. And that very much aligns with who we are as people and how we live our lives. And one of the things that we’ve heard on with other interviews, moms who share their stories, is — we had two to three people at most of our appointments and on our birth there was three people who came from the midwifery practice. So there’s typically other voices and other people present when in these midwifery appointments — whether it’s apprentice midwives. And that was fantastic too. It was like we got a chance to know multiple people. They got to add to the conversation and contribute to our experience in beautiful ways. And just didn’t experience that in the hospital. I got to see different nurses every time we went. Same doctor, but different staff every time. And so the familiarity, the family feel, the warmth — it truly was night and day. It really was night and day. And I highly recommend that everybody at least interview a midwife just to have that experience, just to see what potential possibility is out there.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: So many interesting points. I mean, I’m still stuck on what you said about your doctor. I feel like I’ve heard a lot of stories about doctors laughing at people, and I’ve literally never heard of a doctor plugging his ears. So that’s a whole new experience. That’s insane. But I do think it’s — obviously it’s not always that severe, but there’s certainly this atmosphere of, oh, I see you — you’ve been Googling. And ultimately the sense that I’m getting from you is that you definitely just felt like, I just have to go along with what they say. And I think a lot of women and couples and people in general have had that kind of experience regardless of whether it’s birth or with a different aspect of their health — where they get the message real fast that if you don’t just do what you’re supposed to do, quote-unquote, if you don’t just follow exactly what I say, this is basically going to be hard for you, or they might even throw you out of their practice.

I feel like there’s a lot of interesting differences. And for me, I think with my audience, because I don’t really talk about birth a lot — I don’t think I’ve done an episode to share my birth story — I think that one of the things I find is that the average person doesn’t always even know about midwifery, let alone that it’s an option, but also even what they do and what they’re capable of. I mean, when I share with people that midwives come prepared — like they can even suture you if you need suture, like they’re legitimately medical professionals — people don’t really know that, they kind of don’t know what it is.

Another thing I was thinking of is that in our culture, birth is certainly portrayed as a medical emergency in all situations. Whether it’s Hollywood, TV, movies, or just as in general, our understanding of birth, it’s certainly presented as this always this medical emergency that requires a hospital and a doctor, possibly a surgeon. Years ago I used to watch Grey’s Anatomy and like there was never one uncomplicated birth, right? Every birth needed a surgeon to even do something to the baby before it even was born. And so everything is so complicated. And so I think that when you have that in your kind of background, when you’re thinking about doing a home birth, legitimate fears and questions come up. What happens if this, what happens if that? And what about all these medical emergencies we hear about? Is my wife going to die, is my baby going to die? So maybe both of you can kind of take turns to share how you got past those fears, because obviously you had to in order to commit to doing it at home.

Matthew Bivens: Yeah, and I had a ton of them. All the what-ifs that you’re referencing — what if Sarah starts bleeding and they can’t stop it? What if the baby needs something beyond what the midwives can do? What if someone’s clearly dying? What if, what if, what if? And I think for me, I mentioned it earlier, it helped so much to see birth happening. You know, we watched a DVD documentary — which just shows the process of a home birth. And watching birth happen in a for-real, for-real way — it shattered all of the media image that birth is this terrifying medical emergency. Because you’re so right, it’s always portrayed as an emergency. Medical emergency, thank God the doctors are there because it’s a medical emergency. And then I started watching these other births, I’m like, well, this isn’t an emergency. This is a natural process. It’s a very natural thing. And then I started thinking more about how prior to 150 years ago, birth wasn’t happening in hospitals for most people. And just conversations like that with our midwives — as they reminded me of how natural this process is, and when you let it happen the way that it’s supposed to, things generally turn out just fine. And so it’s things like that — I just needed to change the story that I had around birth. And I didn’t need a lot of convincing because the evidence was so clear. And then just to speak on the what-if questions and the fears — when I brought those to my midwives, because I did, I brought all my stuff, they had answers for every single question and every single scenario that I posed. They had answers that resonated with me. And at that point, when all of those fears were addressed, it was like, okay, well what else do I have? You’ve kind of answered everything. So all of the scenarios that I’m playing forth in my mind, we have a way to address it. And at that point, the image of birth was changed for me. So okay, cool. I have nothing else to rest on in terms of why I’m not down for this. Let’s move forward. And that’s kind of how it was for me.

Sarah Bivens: For me, you know, it’s interesting because I certainly had fears too. I thought about all the what-ifs. I thought about making this different choice and what it could end up looking like, and then who will have what to say about it, whether it’s family or people we’ve shared this with, or even myself — how I might come down on myself for however this unfolds. And I believe all of us have different parts that information or experience will resonate with us on. Like we have a very decent helping of kind of the two different personalities of birthers that we’ve talked to: the ones who want the data and the evidence-based stuff, and once they have that kind of in line, they’re cool and they’re like, all right, I’m great. And then the others who work more on, say, the spiritual, emotional aspects of how to prepare and build that confidence and relate to birth in a certain way. And I believe all of us have a combination of them. And so I feel like for me, early on, once I got through some of the mental aspects of why home birth resonated with me — particularly a lot of the evidence and a lot of the statistics that are really in favor of home birth being the best route if you are low risk and if that’s what you want to do — once I had that information, I didn’t really need to go back and visit any of that. So I didn’t need to go analytical anymore. I really sought, then from that point, to look at the emotional and spiritual and physical connection and preparation to kind of address those what-ifs.

And birth and death are very connected. We shy away from talking about those aspects of it, and I totally understand. And I think there’s a moment when — whether we’re consciously acknowledging it or not — every woman, every birthing person, when they step into that space, when you step on the bricks, so to speak — that’s kind of a red tent analogy, when women used to stand on the birthing bricks — I think you’re willing to deal with whatever comes. And there was a part of me that accepted that death was a possibility in this experience. Death is an inherent risk in life. You get up out of bed in the morning and there’s a possibility for that. So I think kind of having a surrender piece to that, then everything kind of falls in comparison to that — the what-ifs and the mentation around — you know, birth isn’t a mental event that you can think your way through. It’s very much a visceral, primal, spiritual thing. So I had the fears and, once I kind of had my logistical ducks in a row, so to speak, it was just that surrender and sharing and talking about it and connecting with more people about it and surrendering it up.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Yeah, I mean, that is obviously a huge part of the process because those fears are real. We’ve heard about some of those dire scenarios that everyone always brings up — like, well, what if the cord is around the baby’s neck, and what if, da da da? And so I know for myself, one of the things that was really helpful was just learning about how the process goes. You know, anyone who’s been through pregnancy and birth knows that you don’t just get pregnant, have the baby the next day. This whole pregnancy thing takes almost ten months — I know they say it’s nine, but it’s more like ten. And during that time, if you’re having care, then for the most part they’re able to identify if you fall into the low-risk category.

I know that that was something that you spoke to as well. And as I know from the experience of actually pushing two babies out, my births were nothing like I’ve ever seen on television at all. It’s just complete nonsense. So I think that everything that you’re saying is really important for anybody who is thinking about birthing at home. Because before you rule it out or jump into it, it actually makes a lot of sense to figure out what it really looks like. And ironically, you can go to YouTube and there’s a lot of like peaceful home births available for free on the internet. So with the caveat — be judicious as to which births you choose — but it’s out there and you can see it and it’s very interesting.

So there was something else I wanted to bring up about the birth — and then I also want to ask you to tell us about the birth. There’s so many questions. One of the things, because you were alluding at the beginning of the conversation to some of the specific things that you wanted in your experience — you wanted to not be hooked up to stuff, you wanted the freedom to eat and drink and move around as you saw fit. And there are other aspects that I think we don’t really know about unless we look into them. So things like when the cord is cut and how that whole process works, when they wash the baby, or all the things that they potentially do — giving certain shots right away, or whatever. And there’s a lot of things that if you were going through the hospital process that are just going to happen, and you may or may not be fully informed about what’s going on. So maybe talk a little bit about that and some of those differences, and if any of those types of things were also part of your concern.

Sarah Bivens: Yeah, there’s a lot of great stuff there in terms of how our birth unfolded in particular. With there not being a protocol, an entity to satisfy as far as procedure is concerned, I did get to move about freely and I did get that autonomy. And for our birth experience, from okay, active labor is beginning to baby is here, was 12 hours. And the first half of that we were alone in the house. So it was me in our bathtub, in our bathroom, and Matthew just, you know, petting my hair and talking to me and bringing me whatever I needed. And so, nope — didn’t have any of the beeping monitors, didn’t have the fluorescent lights, didn’t have the weird-smelling chemicals of the cleaning and the floors. And no one touched me unless I wanted them to. And I actually did want a lot of that. I had a lot of counter pressure and everyone was doing the clothespin on me and I had a fist bunched into my hip probably at any point in the experience. But I just felt very supported while at the same time I was in control, so to speak.

And other things that I remember — when I’m thinking about what it could have been like in a hospital, from other people’s experience, because I have not had that — when baby arrived, she got placed right on my chest. And the cord was not cut immediately. She stayed attached to the cord. We chose for — time is kind of blurry — but it was at least 30 minutes to an hour, essentially, from when it stopped pulsing. And she had everything she needed. And we didn’t birth the placenta right away. We let that kind of take its time. And no, she wasn’t whisked off to be weighed and cleaned and scrubbed and have goop put in her eye. She again stayed on my chest until I got tended to. And they do Apgar scores — again, they’re fully equipped people who know what they’re doing. And they were able to check on her well-being, and that she was looking great, sounding great. And they measure and weigh her a little bit differently — it looks kind of like the stork cloth, you know, that you see. That’s kind of what they do.

And then also some of the times when intervention might be necessary — I was bleeding a little bit more than you would like to see right after Maya came out. And so they laid me on the bed and they shot me right in the leg with some Pitocin. And I did tear a little bit and they stitched me right up there on my bed shortly thereafter. So things like that that might have been different in a hospital. And one thing that I know would have been different in the hospital was there was some meconium present in my waters when they broke. And that could have meant a different scenario in terms of maybe what even would have happened right then with me — and then certainly when Maya came out, what would have happened. She most likely would not have been placed right on my chest and trusted to kind of go through that process. She would have very likely been taken away immediately. And that goes back to that vigilant space-holding of the midwife and of the care provider — to be aware of that and be ahead of that. And I just had total trust in the team. And I believe it’s the result of that, and just the calm space-holding, that allowed for such a beautiful experience to unfold.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: And Matthew, what was your experience? I know that if you were to speak to me versus my husband, there were things I didn’t see. I don’t think I ever saw my placenta — I don’t even remember birthing it. It happened obviously. And there are certain things I literally don’t even remember and was not privy to. So Matthew, I’m curious if your experience of it was a little different — like, just level with us, I guess, for all the listeners.

Matthew Bivens: Yeah, like behind the scenes going into our birth, I felt very confident. I felt very prepared, even though I didn’t finish reading any books — I started a couple books but I didn’t finish any of them. I just felt like this is such a natural thing and we’re meant to do this. And the greatest thing that I can do is be a support for Sarah and be confident so that she sees confidence. And for that moment during the birth process when her confidence starts to waver, she can see it in me. So I went into the birth like I’m going to be hands-on, I’m going to be right there, and I’m going to be a tremendous supporter.

So Sarah mentioned the first half of Maya’s birth was just us. She went into labor around 10 p.m., so until about 4 a.m. it was just us. And it was beautiful and it was quiet. It was a fall evening. We had candles, soft music. I mean, it was the most chill, spa-like vibe ever. And it was fantastic. And I just tended to Sarah — whatever she needed, I was there. And then when things started to pick up a little bit later on, our team started arriving. And we had a sizeable team — we had like six, seven, eight people. So people started arriving and our room started to get a little more crowded. And I was right there next to her in the birth pool, applying the counter pressure.

And there was one moment where Sarah was in the bathroom and she looked at me and she said, I don’t know if I can do this.

Sarah Bivens: Yeah, that’s what I said.

Matthew Bivens: Yeah. And I understood — well, this is your moment, Matthew. You don’t waver in your confidence, you just pour that belief back into her. And so that’s what I did. I don’t remember what I said to you, but there was something along the lines of, no, you got this, you’re right there. And that was the only moment of wavering that I saw from Sarah. And it wasn’t even like, I think we need to go to a hospital. It was nothing like that. It was just a, I’m feeling the intensity of these pressure waves right now. And I was like, cool, you’re built for this, you’ve trained for this, you got this.

And so when Sarah was pushing — that was one of the most incredible experiences that I’ve ever been a part of. Sarah sat on a birth stool, and on the floor kneeling in between her legs was our head midwife. And I was behind Sarah sitting on a yoga ball, essentially bracing her shoulders so that she had something to push against. And for 45 minutes, she just She-Hulked and pushed so strong. And I’ll tell you, I was exhausted. Because every time that she would push, she would lean into it and I would be pulling back. I mean, my back and my biceps and my core was just on fire because she was so strong, she was pushing so hard, so powerfully. The amount of raw strength and power that reside in women is unbelievable. I had no idea until I literally felt it. And I’m getting tired, and I’m a fit guy, and I’m sitting there behind Sarah holding her, and she’s the one who’s gone through this process in hour 12 now and hadn’t slept, hadn’t eaten anything. But here she is just displaying this incredibly intense raw power. It was humbling.

And then baby Maya came out. Put her on the chest. Everyone in the room was just crying and in awe. And then the midwife noticed blood. And so they had Sarah stand up, and when Sarah stood up, blood hit the floor. And I saw it. And it was like a gush, you know. Sarah didn’t really know. And so they said, okay, everybody clear out. They kind of parted everybody, and everybody left the room or moved to the other side of the room. And they laid Sarah on the bed. And I see blood, and the midwives jumped into action — very calmly, but also very purposeful in their movements. Everybody out of the way, move Sarah on the bed. And so again, I just knew, I’m there to support and I’m there to instill confidence. So I put my body across Sarah’s so she didn’t see what was going on down there. And we just — I just said, look at our baby, you did it, you did it, look what you did. And the midwives gave her a shot of Pitocin, and everything was taken care of.

And then after minutes go by and after the midwives are like, everything’s cool, Sarah’s fine, baby’s fine — that’s when I allowed my emotion to come out. And I stood up and just started bawling. And I went to every person in that room and just hugged them. I just gave them a hug and left just tears all over their shoulder — just in gratitude, because they were such a big part of the experience. And the way that they poured into me allowed me to be so solid and strong and pour into Sarah. So I was so grateful for each one of them and their presence, because they all played such an important role — whether it was taking care of our dog, or preparing food, or being there to switch places with me when my right arm was getting tired from applying counter pressure so I could use my left arm. Like everybody played such a great role.

And so when everything was said and done, I just gave them gratitude and allowed my emotions to come out. And then it was just this incredible experience of — we’re in our home. We don’t have to go anywhere. Sarah, you’re in the bed and you’re going to stay there for the next few days. And our baby’s here. And it was beautiful. The midwives cleaned everything up — I didn’t touch any of the blood that hit the floor, I didn’t touch any of the birth pool. They took care of everything. And you know, people filed out one by one. And then a few hours later, it was like just Sarah, Maya, and I, and we’re at home, in our bed, eating food. It was fantastic. So the behind-the-scenes on the home birth was just really the experience that we designed and intended for — even though certain things didn’t go the way that we had planned. I still think a lot of it went the way that it did because we had such strong intentions and we had such a clear vision. And it was fantastic. It was life-changing.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: What a powerful experience. There was a part of me that couldn’t help but wonder — this is what they want to take away from us with all of their procedures, by medicalizing, over-medicalizing it. Not to say that there’s never a time and a place — I feel very thankful for all the advances in medicine and things like that. But I don’t think that birth is necessarily a medical emergency. Because in normal conditions, the majority of low-risk births can happen much that way.

So in my kind of small friend circle, there’s very few people personally who I know who also were interested in doing home birth. And one of the comments I hear the most is just like, well, I couldn’t do that, I need the drugs, give me the drugs, whatever. And I do feel that — I feel like the first week after I gave birth both times, I was like, I’m never doing this again, because I could like still feel and remember all of the feelings, the ring of fire and whatnot. But I feel like shortly after, it kind of goes away and the memory fades. So I suppose, final question about the birth — I love this conversation, obviously we could continue all day. But Sarah, what was your experience of the pain? And what would you want people to know who — especially the percentage of women who are like, oh hell no, I need the drugs?

Sarah Bivens: Yeah, yeah, I get it. For me, I relate to it as intense sensation, for sure. I wouldn’t negate that it was very intense. But I would not relate to it as pain, because of the belief that I had cultivated around what this experience was and what it was for. And so while it was intense and while it was like a marathon and very physically demanding, it was with purpose. And it had productivity to it, if that makes any sense. You know, I knew what it was for, and I knew it was my body communicating, and I knew it was me having this experience. And for me personally, I was interested in soaking up every aspect of that experience, even if the intensity came with it.

And my birth — and we hear this a lot in all the stories that we hear — our births kind of have glimpses, like they’re windows into how we live our lives and how we show up to challenge and how we show up to chronic stress and circumstance. And my birth matched that. You know, there were parts of it that were very intense. And then when I got the opportunity to lean into that pushing and I felt like I could be a part of it more — like I was complete with riding the waves and the surrender, and just, you know, take me — and now I could take a more active role — oh my gosh, I relished in that. And I loved that part of it.

And so when I add all of those emotions to how I related to birth — even if there were parts of it, you know, like I looked at Matthew and said I don’t know if I can do this — of course that was a part of it. That was an ebb to the ebb and flow of it. So I would not personally relate to it as painful. There are women who have orgasmic births. I would consider my birth an orgasmic birth in spirit in terms of how I experienced it, though I did not have a physiological orgasm. But some women do. And so just to know that that’s possible — like, that’s paradigm shifting.

So I think the real opportunity — you could look at it as a problem, I look at it as an opportunity — that we have around the culture of birth is the belief in ourselves to experience birth the way that we desire. So to the women who feel, you know, I could never do that — that’s a belief, that’s really what it is. And I would invite you to look at where you might have that belief about yourself in other areas. And that’s regardless of your location of birth and the tools that you use to have your birth. It’s about the belief that you have in yourself to step into challenge that you’ve ushered in. One of my favorite quotes about birth is, the contraction isn’t bigger than you because it is you. And so it’s you calling forth this experience into your life. And so the belief that you can’t do something — do you likely believe that in other places of your life too? And so I would just invite you to look at that and how through your birth, again regardless of where you do it and how you do it, how it can be a very massive, pivotal moment in your life to believe in yourself in a really big way.

Matthew Bivens: We’ve had several people on our podcast share stories where they describe themselves as the woman who was like, I need all the drugs. I want all the drugs, just give me that stuff. I can’t handle any of that. I don’t want to experience any of that. And then at some point in that process, while they were pregnant — or maybe they were even in the conception phase — they had that moment, that experience of really facing themselves and asking those really deep questions. And like Sarah said, looking at their beliefs: what do I really believe about myself? Like, what do I really believe is possible? And again, so many stories of people who went from, there’s no way I would do this, I can’t handle this — to looking deep within themselves and getting to the other side and saying, you know what, I believe that I’m capable of something greater than what I was told, what I have seen, what was modeled to me. I believe and I trust in something bigger. And that’s transformation. That’s a transformative experience. And birth itself presents this opportunity to face yourself. I love that quote — the contraction is bigger than you because it is you. It’s such an opportunity to transcend.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: I think that everyone who goes through home birth has that moment of, I can’t do this. And I would imagine that it’s often around transition. I certainly remember — the way you handled it, Matthew, was really awesome. I’m curious what my husband would say, because I’m pretty sure I saw a look of nervousness in his eyes. There are so many stories about the tubs — they almost become part of it.

Matthew Bivens: Yeah. I think that’s one of the beautiful parts of the experience for the partners. Because you’re going to have an opportunity where your confidence might get shook as a partner. And I know that in our relationship, I want to be somebody that Sarah can count on and rely on and depend on and just sees as solid 110% in our relationship in general. So that was just a microcosm for it. And I was expecting it to happen. Like I was expecting — not for Sarah to have doubt in herself — but I was expecting to face that part within me that was like, okay, do you really believe in all this? You’ve said, yeah, I know Sarah can do it, but do you really believe it? Like when she’s going through a pressure wave and I can see it in her face and in her eyes, do you really believe that she’s capable of this? I was prepared for that moment. And it definitely had impact on our relationship beyond the birth, for sure.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: I feel like an experience like that, it definitely changes you. And I think one kind of question as we’re wrapping up — because we’ve spent an hour talking about how wonderful home birth is — I’m sure that there’s plenty of people who are listening who didn’t have one. Maybe they wanted to have one, maybe they didn’t want to have one, maybe they were disappointed in the way their birth went. Maybe they weren’t. Maybe they were like, I had an epidural and everything was wonderful and I’m happy. And so I think there can be this tendency to put one type of birth over another and make it seem like this is the ultimate and everyone should do it this way. And ultimately I don’t think that’s what this conversation is about. I think if anything, from my perspective, I feel like this is the least common option, and sharing a story like this shows what’s possible. But obviously everyone doesn’t get to have that opportunity. There’s plenty of people who’ve planned to have a home birth but something happens that puts them in a higher-risk category. So what would you say to that person who’s like, well, that’s all well and good, but I wasn’t able to do that?

Sarah Bivens: Yeah, I understand that. So one of the things that we sought to do — and it’s big, it’s at the forefront of our intention and the values that we put in our space of Doing It at Home — is that home birth really is a mindset rather than a location. And so for someone who is desiring a home birth experience but that doesn’t work out for them, or it just doesn’t align for whatever reason, then to find the most aligned scenario for you possible. And that might require some more phone calls, it might require some more research, it might require traveling a bit. But if that’s really what is important to you, then you bring the space. You bring the home birth to wherever you go. You bring that energy, and you create your intentions, and you create your lists, and you talk to your people, and you get your support. It is absolutely possible and you’re worth it. So that’s what I would say. If you’re desiring a certain kind of birth, then have that kind of birth and have a really powerful relationship to it — that it’s about the space you hold for it rather than where it physically is. And so one of the things we came up with recently is: wherever you do it, whomever you do it with, do it with love. We talk about doing it at home, but it’s really about doing it with love.

Matthew Bivens: What I’ll add is that I’m very grateful for all the options that are present. I love the fact that people can go to a hospital, that people can go to a birthing center, that there are midwives who work at hospitals, that there are so many different drugs that are available to folks if that’s what they want. For me and for both of us, it’s really about people having the experience that resonates with them, that they feel they connect with, wherever that is. And so it’s a home birth mindset, as Sarah mentioned, and it’s one about getting clear as to what you want, believing that it’s possible for you, and doing what needs to happen in order for you to have that experience, wherever it is.

You know, I don’t really care where you have a baby. Just feel empowered where you have your baby, and feel like it was your choice. That, I think, is so big. Like, it was your choice. It wasn’t that you felt pressured or coerced. You thought through options, you weighed different options, you had tough conversations, you held your standard, you advocated for yourself. All of those things is what Sarah and I are really all about. And for us, when we did all of that, the location that was right for us was home. Yet you can do all of those things and go through this process, and the location that’s right for you might be right there in the hospital or right there in the birthing center — or out there in the field, wherever you want.

And then lastly to speak on — because there are people who intend on home birth but then they transfer. And we’ve had conversations with those moms on the podcast as well. And we say: you intended for a home birth, you planned and prepped for a home birth, you did all the things. And at the very end, you went to a hospital. You still had a home birth. That’s what it is. That’s what it was. People can feel all types of ways when their plans don’t go the way they want them to. And I have compassion. But again, that home birth mentality or mindset — you take that with you anywhere. And you both talked about earlier the idea of surrender. Of course, there’s a huge component of surrender in birth. You can have the greatest plan in the world, and then it can all go out the window in a moment, and you just got to surrender to it. So that’s one of the great lessons for all of us in birth.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: I feel like we went full circle. Because you mentioned just that one little comment — you’re like, you want to have your birth at home, in the hospital, in the field — and I was like, we went right back to the farmhouse, crazy people who want to do it in the field. So I feel like what we learned in this episode is: it’s not a bunch of crazy people having their babies in the field. It’s a very interesting, powerful way for families to reclaim it and to make those choices. Like you mentioned, there was something else I wanted to say, but now I forgot what it is. Maybe it’ll come back to me. But I want to thank you both for coming here and being on the show. This has been such a fascinating and interesting conversation.

Actually, I think it came back to me. So one of my very close and dear friends is a labor and delivery nurse. And so we’ve been friends for a long time. I remember when we were in our early 20s and she was starting her nursing career. And so not like I wasn’t in a relationship ready to have a baby, but we would have these conversations because I’m gonna have my baby at home. And because she was not only a labor and delivery nurse, but she worked at a high-risk hospital, she saw a lot of the stuff that can go wrong. So she was dealing with a variety of challenges. And it was really interesting to hear her perspective. And I remember she would say that sometimes a woman would come in, and she was very type A, and she would have this very specific plan down to the detail of how everything needs to go for this birth. And my friend would often say that those were the births that would go haywire. And I often think of birth as also a metaphor. It’s your introduction to motherhood. That is another human being. It has its own energy, its own personality. And I think that it is important to look at your options, educate yourself — I think it’s so important to learn as much as you can about birth because it’s not something we’re taught about at all. There’s so many incredible things that our body does naturally, and that’s why the process itself is natural if we allow it to happen and unfold without a lot of interruption and chaos. But I also think we still have to be open. Because we can have all the plans in the world to do it one way, but this baby has a mind of its own and it’s going to come out however it decides to.

If you want to comment on that, feel free. But I’d also invite you to share with us a little bit about you and what you do. Tell us about your podcast, about the socials. Where can our audience find out more about you?

Matthew Bivens: Yeah, for sure. Thank you. I think you encapsulated that very well. I’ll say one thing because it’s such a good point — that you can roll in there with a plan and it just goes totally left. And I think that if you have this mindset of, okay, I’m going to map out the blueprint for my birth and my birth needs to go the same way as a blueprint — kind of like a blueprint for a house, if I have a blueprint for a house my expectation is I get everything on that blueprint — to me, that’s not the most effective way to prepare for a birth. For us it was a vision. This is what we envisioned for our birth. This is the type of experience we would like to have. Because the experience part of it — what I’m talking about is the emotionality and the feeling, not necessarily what happens. So we had a vision for what we would have liked to see happen, and we had clarity around what we wanted to experience and how we wanted to feel. And then we let it go. We just said, okay, it’s out there, and we’re going to roll with however. So yes — if you go into it with a blueprint, this is everything that has to happen in my birth, I think that’s going to be pretty tough. Because a lot of that’s going to be out of your hands. So I appreciate the distinction that you offered up.

How to connect with us — so you can go to our website, diahpodcast.com. And pretty much everything you can link to is from our website. So that’ll look like our social media: Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. We have a book on Amazon. It’s called Doing It at Home. So that really captures our whole home birth journey, as well as everything we learned from start to finish. And so it’s really a great resource if you’re considering home birth or you’ve just chosen home birth and you’re kind of at the beginning of that journey. And the podcast of course you can find on any podcast player — Doing It at Home. And we’re gonna have you, Lisa, on it shortly. So I’m excited for that.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Well, I’m excited for that. Obviously I’m not shy about talking about things, but I feel like I’m always talking about fertility awareness and conception and birth control and all those things. So I think that it might be the first time I’ve had the opportunity to share my birth stories. I think they’re really interesting. It was such an interesting experience. And it’s also really nice to talk to fellow home birthers. Because I think some of my friends whom I love kind of look at me like I have two butts or something for making this decision. And I get it, I do understand, it does seem kind of out there. But then on the other hand, I have to remind myself — just like you said, Matthew — before 100 years ago, 150 years ago, there were very few of any hospital births. And so I think that’s something that can give us confidence as well. You know, this is how women were bringing babies into the world since the beginning of time. So with that said, thank you so much for coming on the show. And I’m excited to share this episode.

Sarah Bivens: Thanks for having us.

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack: Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it with a friend. You’ll find the show notes page for today’s episode over at fertilityfriday.com/417. I hope that you enjoyed today’s episode with Sarah and Matthew. It was such a treat to have them share their birth story, and also the whole switch between wanting to have a hospital birth and a home birth, and the different phases that they each went through to feel comfortable with that shift. And so yeah, I thought it was a really fun episode, and also just a great window into different ways to birth.

So if this is a new topic for you listening, if you are pregnant, or if you’re not pregnant but planning to be, or if you’re just interested, I think it is helpful to — if the home birth topic is interesting, not necessarily because you want a home birth, but because maybe it’s something new and you’ve never really heard about it or looked into it and you’ve never really heard anyone’s story about it — then it is really interesting to look into these things. So obviously Sarah and Matthew have their podcast, Doing It at Home, which has just episode after episode of home birth stories. So that can be an interesting window and gateway into it. And also if you have never seen a birth — like a real birth — there are videos on YouTube of home births. So there are women who post up their videos of their births, and it can be a very eye-opening experience to see what a real birth can look like in a home, low-risk setting, where it just doesn’t look anything like the Hollywood interpretation of it.

So if this is a topic that has interested you, or if it really terrified you — if you kind of thought this is crazy but you’re still interested — then it would be a great opportunity to just look into some of the stories and compare them, and just expand your understanding of what a birth experience can look like. So I know even when I experienced my first birth, I always said like nothing that I ever saw in the movies prepared me for what I experienced. Because it really wasn’t like that. And I remember at some point in my pregnancy with my eldest, I did watch some home birthing videos and I probably searched things like water birthing or hypnobirthing or something like that. And it was just a completely different thing. I mean, these women — they had their eyes closed, they’re breathing, maybe they’re in a tub, maybe they’re out of the tub, maybe they’re in their bed, whatever it is, maybe someone’s rubbing their back. But it just wasn’t like anything that you see on television.

So I do think that a lot of our ideas about birth come from these really hyper-Hollywood, really dramatic kind of — like, I can remember, I mean, I grew up in the 80s and 90s, so it was ridiculous the way that they kind of made fun of birth and all of the different comedy shows that would show birth. And this has nothing to do with reality. And it makes you think that every birth is a medical emergency and everyone’s about to die. So it is helpful to balance that perspective and just hear different stories. And of course the most important takeaway is that there’s not one right way to do it, right? There’s many women that are comfortable birthing in hospital, many women that are comfortable birthing at home, and many women who prefer a birthing center where they kind of get the best of both worlds. So I think at the end of the day, I hope that this episode has inspired some conversations and exposed you to some different experiences.

And if you are curious and want to hear about my birth story, I don’t think I have ever shared the whole birth story on this podcast. Maybe I’ll do that at some point in the future. That would be fun. And so if you’re wanting to listen to that, then head over to the show notes page, fertilityfriday.com/417, and I will have the link there to my episode on the Doing It at Home podcast. And so with that said, I hope you have a wonderful week, weekend, whenever you’re tuning into the show. And of course, as always, until next time, be well and happy charting!